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Subject: [P] The War On Thanksgiving rss

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http://www.thetranscript.com/ci_22038740

"The day after Thanksgiving has suffered a relentless assault from the forces of Christmas, and we memorialize this suffering with a day called "Black Friday," where we mourn that the idea of giving thanks for what we have was roundly defeated by the idea of being so eager to buy Christmas presents that people are literally trampled to death in stores attempting to buy things on sale. This actually happens every year."



More of an actual problem than the War on Christmas?
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When I 1st read the heading for this post I thought it would be about Metacomet (later called King Philip) & King Philip's war.

From what I read in Jil Lepore's book "The Name of War" Massasoit (Metacomet's father) was thought to be instrumental in the survival of the Plymouth Colony yet after the King Philip's war his son Metacomet's head would be present on a post at each Thanksgiving celebration for about 20 years.

In response to what this turned out to be about, yes folks need to stop trampling others just to save a few bucks on a plastic whatever at Target.
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Osirus wrote:
http://www.thetranscript.com/ci_22038740

"The day after Thanksgiving has suffered a relentless assault from the forces of Christmas, and we memorialize this suffering with a day called "Black Friday," where we mourn that the idea of giving thanks for what we have was roundly defeated by the idea of being so eager to buy Christmas presents that people are literally trampled to death in stores attempting to buy things on sale. This actually happens every year."



More of an actual problem than the War on Christmas?



Actually I think they go hand in hand. The more Christmas becomes about stuff and less about people and love the more "Black Friday" becomes the predictable kick-off.

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Just do what we do, have the one (Christmas).
 
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Santa: 17
Turkey: 6

One quarter to go.
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A great example of how allowing the amoral nature of corporations the unfettered ability to manipulate and encourage human nature eventually dissolves non-consumer elements of culture. Of course corporations are going to take advantage of people to make a profit, it is their job. It destroys Christmas, Thanksgiving and even Halloween.

We can hem and haw about people not controlling themselves and placing their values above their need for a bigger TV, but when it comes down to it, companies know the human instinct to consume is easily rationalized into transcendency, especially in the U.S. where consumerism is a nationalistic religion on to it's won.

What we have to do is ask ourselves if there is value in protecting these cultural traditions by restricting (regulation wise) when and how businesses can take advantage of the consumer instinct. Should we collectively protect our lack of self-control by preventing others from abusing it? Does culture have enough value to allow us to use the government to override our lack of personal responsibility by restricting the dealers?

If we have a hard time systematically and uniformly restricting business from destroying the environment and making safe products in general, this is a tough row to hoe when it's just about whether you feel good about esoteric concepts a couple times a year. The machine wants it's money, is your love of Thanksgiving and Christmas strong enough to keep the machine from it's prey?
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TheChin! wrote:
A great example of how allowing the amoral nature of corporations the unfettered ability to manipulate and encourage human nature eventually dissolves non-consumer elements of culture. Of course corporations are going to take advantage of people to make a profit, it is their job. It destroys Christmas, Thanksgiving and even Halloween.

We can hem and haw about people not controlling themselves and placing their values above their need for a bigger TV, but when it comes down to it, companies know the human instinct to consume is easily rationalized into transcendency, especially in the U.S. where consumerism is a nationalistic religion on to it's won.

What we have to do is ask ourselves if there is value in protecting these cultural traditions by restricting (regulation wise) when and how businesses can take advantage of the consumer instinct. Should we collectively protect our lack of self-control by preventing others from abusing it? Does culture have enough value to allow us to use the government to override our lack of personal responsibility by restricting the dealers?

If we have a hard time systematically and uniformly restricting business from destroying the environment and making safe products in general, this is a tough row to hoe when it's just about whether you feel good about esoteric concepts a couple times a year. The machine wants it's money, is your love of Thanksgiving and Christmas strong enough to keep the machine from it's prey?


Uh, okay. Interesting.

The "consumers" demand this. The retailers meet the demand. The politicians would be pilloried if they attempted to bar the door between what the consumers demand and what the retailers supply.

Mostly it seems that anyone writing about this commercialization attempts to write from an altitude they pretend to inhabit, well above the crass and low-bred people they are looking down upon - those trashy consumers and their evil enablers, the corporations. The dirty little secret though is that most people who write disdainfully about the trashy people and the enablers are themselves quick to buy the latest gadgets, the coolest cars, the edgiest cell phones, the newest look in clothes, geek gear or whatever their personal "ilk" agrees is top notch. Maybe not you specifically, but truly, most.

Commercialization and mocking/disdaining it is the 21st century equivalent of protesting against "The Man". It's a faceless, nameless target that is easy to conjure because it includes everybody and everything at one point or the other. So the disdainers will always be assured they are right and true and that everyone within earshot will agree with them.

The perfect feedback loop.

If you happen to lament the passing of traditions like family gathering at Thanksgiving to actually give thanks, for their family and friends, or Christmas being about either faith or at least a sense of brotherhood and appreciation of the advance of civilization then I understand. But remember, tradition, family, the bonds and values that created these traditions have been being disassembled and deconstructed for decades now as secularists and atheists and the ACLU bay at the walls demanding that nobody ought to be subjected to religion or the foul underpinnings of traditions built on the bones of the conquered. Our society is becoming what the secularists demanded it become and what they have sued in court for all these decades - we are very nearly a culture that has been stripped of our heritage and are now seeking a new tradition. Well, it appears that new tradition, that new "reason for being" is consumerism.

I prefer the old ways. I'm not much of a consumer anyway and even though I'm not religious either, family and friends are more important in my life than buying shit. Enjoy the sales!

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I celebrate Christmas by giving. It's easier to give more when there are lots of awesome sales.

That being said, my wife does the black Friday shopping with her Mom and Grandmother. It's a day out of the year when they can all be together, doing something they enjoy, and saving money at the same time. It IS about family for us.
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DWTripp wrote:


Mostly it seems that anyone writing about this commercialization attempts to write from an altitude they pretend to inhabit, well above the crass and low-bred people they are looking down upon - those trashy consumers and their evil enablers, the corporations. The dirty little secret though is that most people who write disdainfully about the trashy people and the enablers are themselves quick to buy the latest gadgets, the coolest cars, the edgiest cell phones, the newest look in clothes, geek gear or whatever their personal "ilk" agrees is top notch. Maybe not you specifically, but truly, most.


I agree for the most part and I tried to include myself in the way I wrote my post. I'm not as consumerist as I think many are, but I'm not innocent of it either. I just think I don't trigger on it as much as some. Degree doesn't really matter though, I know that sometimes I feel the "need" to get a certain game or music album and I know that feeling is amplified when I know a good deal (real or perceived) exists. For people who have that "need" for a wider range of stuff, they can subvert otherwise "family culture" type events and feelings to satisfy the urge. I can't go as far as using an addiction analogy, but it does seem similar and probably accurate in some cases. That "need" is the perfect motivation for retailers. Madison Ave and marketers in general have made stoking and encouraging it a science and/or art form. My point is that it's all working as designed, if we don't like it and can't stop our own desires from subverting our culture, we either accept it or make laws controlling ourselves.

An anecdotal example of how I can be a consumer sheep: The other day I saw on Amazon that they had Frag for $13 and free shipping. Even though I really couldn't even afford $13 at that moment I had to have it and I bought it. This is in the face of the knowledge and my own personal feelings about giant corporations are destroying small business and eventually the economy in general. I feel shitty about it now. If I really wanted the game and wanted to uphold my values (which don't always have to be prefaced by "family" to be important) I should have gone to a locally owned retailer. I know that at certain times, in certain circumstances, for certain items, I can be just like the people shopping at pre-Black Friday sales. All those 'certain' qualifiers have never lined up or me on Black Friday, but I know that feeling and I know how certain business practices and decisions can push my buttons. I get stronger as I get older and my convictions turn me away more often than when I was younger, but I understand.

I (predictably) don't agree with your characterization of the ACLU and friends. I think that they have tried to set up an atmosphere where different traditions and family groups can co-exist, not supplanting one for another. Commercialism, for all it's benefits to standard of living, is just as dangerous to them also (which is partly in your point). I wouldn't want to say that just because someone wanted their children to feel good about Hanukkah and not have Christmas forced on them, that caused a vacuum for Best Buy to destroy Thanksgiving. Marketers started using Santa Claus to subvert Christmas from the Christians long before secularism and the ACLU got much traction.
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Jythier wrote:
I celebrate Christmas by giving. It's easier to give more when there are lots of awesome sales.

That being said, my wife does the black Friday shopping with her Mom and Grandmother. It's a day out of the year when they can all be together, doing something they enjoy, and saving money at the same time. It IS about family for us.


Yep. I agree. If that's what you do together then it seems fine to me. but beware, you're just trashy thralls to the corporate overlords who lure you to their lairs with twinkling lights and colorful "sale" signs. At least that's the common lament of the the elevated and disdainful intellectuals who now write for the WSJ, the NYT's, The Atlantic, etc., etc., etc.

Having never been a "gifty" sort of person I have built a tradition of managing the expectations of my family. They know they aren't going to get a lot of stuff from me and even when my kids were little they never resented it. My various wives and girlfriends always got at least one nice thing (as did the kids), but I preferred the appearance of a nice tree with a smattering of tempting packages under it rather than a tree that looks as if it was sitting on top of an erupting, heaving volcanic mass of packages and bows and To/From tags nobody looks at twice.

My adult kids have, thankfully, carried this tradition forward with their own young families and focus on each other with a few cool presents tossed in rather than having a Christmas morning where the kids assault a mountain of plastic trinkets and throw-away nothings while screaming and ripping and shredding with all the grace of a pack of mangy African hyenas savaging the rotting corpse of a bloated hippo and then glancing over their shoulders and screeching back at their parents, "Is this it? Is this all there IS!!!!!!?????"

Perfect example - my daughter is a talented artist, cartoon/comic style. She knows I'm a Beatles fan (as is she) so for my last birthday she hand made a "book", using scrap papers and her own art, of the story of "Rocky Raccoon". Her and her husband have enough money they could easily afford to buy me a nice new iPad or Xbox, but I actually prefer the comic book made by the little girl sharing my adult daughter's body.

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DWTripp wrote:

Uh, okay. Interesting.

The "consumers" demand this. The retailers meet the demand. The politicians would be pilloried if they attempted to bar the door between what the consumers demand and what the retailers supply.

Mostly it seems that anyone writing about this commercialization attempts to write from an altitude they pretend to inhabit, well above the crass and low-bred people they are looking down upon - those trashy consumers and their evil enablers, the corporations. The dirty little secret though is that most people who write disdainfully about the trashy people and the enablers are themselves quick to buy the latest gadgets, the coolest cars, the edgiest cell phones, the newest look in clothes, geek gear or whatever their personal "ilk" agrees is top notch. Maybe not you specifically, but truly, most.

Commercialization and mocking/disdaining it is the 21st century equivalent of protesting against "The Man". It's a faceless, nameless target that is easy to conjure because it includes everybody and everything at one point or the other. So the disdainers will always be assured they are right and true and that everyone within earshot will agree with them.

The perfect feedback loop.


Right with you on this one, Dmitri Wu Tripp. I agree with pretty much everything you have to say here. Thanks for adding something to the conversation without descending into your particular brand of bizarre insults and misguided invective!

Quote:
If you happen to lament the passing of traditions like family gathering at Thanksgiving to actually give thanks, for their family and friends, or Christmas being about either faith or at least a sense of brotherhood and appreciation of the advance of civilization then I understand. But remember, tradition, family, the bonds and values that created these traditions have been being disassembled and deconstructed for decades now as secularists and atheists and the ACLU bay at the walls demanding that nobody ought to be subjected to religion or the foul underpinnings of traditions built on the bones of the conquered. Our society is becoming what the secularists demanded it become and what they have sued in court for all these decades - we are very nearly a culture that has been stripped of our heritage and are now seeking a new tradition. Well, it appears that new tradition, that new "reason for being" is consumerism.

I prefer the old ways. I'm not much of a consumer anyway and even though I'm not religious either, family and friends are more important in my life than buying shit. Enjoy the sales!



Sigh. Well. Thanks for the first half, anyway. Don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:

Sigh. Well. Thanks for the first half, anyway. Don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.


That's okay Dave, you're still young. You'll probably get it sometime in your 40's or 50's.

Oh, I see you're sporting a Bears micro-badge. How 'bout them Niners, eh?
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DWTripp wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
A great example of how allowing the amoral nature of corporations the unfettered ability to manipulate and encourage human nature eventually dissolves non-consumer elements of culture. Of course corporations are going to take advantage of people to make a profit, it is their job. It destroys Christmas, Thanksgiving and even Halloween.

We can hem and haw about people not controlling themselves and placing their values above their need for a bigger TV, but when it comes down to it, companies know the human instinct to consume is easily rationalized into transcendency, especially in the U.S. where consumerism is a nationalistic religion on to it's won.

What we have to do is ask ourselves if there is value in protecting these cultural traditions by restricting (regulation wise) when and how businesses can take advantage of the consumer instinct. Should we collectively protect our lack of self-control by preventing others from abusing it? Does culture have enough value to allow us to use the government to override our lack of personal responsibility by restricting the dealers?

If we have a hard time systematically and uniformly restricting business from destroying the environment and making safe products in general, this is a tough row to hoe when it's just about whether you feel good about esoteric concepts a couple times a year. The machine wants it's money, is your love of Thanksgiving and Christmas strong enough to keep the machine from it's prey?


Uh, okay. Interesting.

The "consumers" demand this. The retailers meet the demand. The politicians would be pilloried if they attempted to bar the door between what the consumers demand and what the retailers supply.

Mostly it seems that anyone writing about this commercialization attempts to write from an altitude they pretend to inhabit, well above the crass and low-bred people they are looking down upon - those trashy consumers and their evil enablers, the corporations. The dirty little secret though is that most people who write disdainfully about the trashy people and the enablers are themselves quick to buy the latest gadgets, the coolest cars, the edgiest cell phones, the newest look in clothes, geek gear or whatever their personal "ilk" agrees is top notch. Maybe not you specifically, but truly, most.

Commercialization and mocking/disdaining it is the 21st century equivalent of protesting against "The Man". It's a faceless, nameless target that is easy to conjure because it includes everybody and everything at one point or the other. So the disdainers will always be assured they are right and true and that everyone within earshot will agree with them.

The perfect feedback loop.

If you happen to lament the passing of traditions like family gathering at Thanksgiving to actually give thanks, for their family and friends, or Christmas being about either faith or at least a sense of brotherhood and appreciation of the advance of civilization then I understand. But remember, tradition, family, the bonds and values that created these traditions have been being disassembled and deconstructed for decades now as secularists and atheists and the ACLU bay at the walls demanding that nobody ought to be subjected to religion or the foul underpinnings of traditions built on the bones of the conquered. Our society is becoming what the secularists demanded it become and what they have sued in court for all these decades - we are very nearly a culture that has been stripped of our heritage and are now seeking a new tradition. Well, it appears that new tradition, that new "reason for being" is consumerism.

I prefer the old ways. I'm not much of a consumer anyway and even though I'm not religious either, family and friends are more important in my life than buying shit. Enjoy the sales!



You had me until that garbage about secularists destroying the heritage of our nation.
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DWTripp wrote:
Jythier wrote:
I celebrate Christmas by giving. It's easier to give more when there are lots of awesome sales.

That being said, my wife does the black Friday shopping with her Mom and Grandmother. It's a day out of the year when they can all be together, doing something they enjoy, and saving money at the same time. It IS about family for us.


Yep. I agree. If that's what you do together then it seems fine to me. but beware, you're just trashy thralls to the corporate overlords who lure you to their lairs with twinkling lights and colorful "sale" signs. At least that's the common lament of the the elevated and disdainful intellectuals who now write for the WSJ, the NYT's, The Atlantic, etc., etc., etc.

Having never been a "gifty" sort of person I have built a tradition of managing the expectations of my family. They know they aren't going to get a lot of stuff from me and even when my kids were little they never resented it. My various wives and girlfriends always got at least one nice thing (as did the kids), but I preferred the appearance of a nice tree with a smattering of tempting packages under it rather than a tree that looks as if it was sitting on top of an erupting, heaving volcanic mass of packages and bows and To/From tags nobody looks at twice.

My adult kids have, thankfully, carried this tradition forward with their own young families and focus on each other with a few cool presents tossed in rather than having a Christmas morning where the kids assault a mountain of plastic trinkets and throw-away nothings while screaming and ripping and shredding with all the grace of a pack of mangy African hyenas savaging the rotting corpse of a bloated hippo and then glancing over their shoulders and screeching back at their parents, "Is this it? Is this all there IS!!!!!!?????"

Perfect example - my daughter is a talented artist, cartoon/comic style. She knows I'm a Beatles fan (as is she) so for my last birthday she hand made a "book", using scrap papers and her own art, of the story of "Rocky Raccoon". Her and her husband have enough money they could easily afford to buy me a nice new iPad or Xbox, but I actually prefer the comic book made by the little girl sharing my adult daughter's body.



We're doing a hand-made Christmas this year, but that doesn't make the flannel cheaper any other day of the year at JoAnn Fabrics (don't tell the kids).

I just have such a small pittance of cash that there are some things I can only afford at Black Friday. Things that most of the rest of the middle class seem to have three or four of but I'm lucky to get the one, and that's it. I'm okay with that, I'm content to not have a i-anything. I have a cheap MP3 player. I have a cheap phone. I have a mid-range computer, because it's important to our whole family to have at least one good one.

Some of these I bought with tax refunds, some on black friday.
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Jythier wrote:
I just have such a small pittance of cash that there are some things I can only afford at Black Friday. Things that most of the rest of the middle class seem to have three or four of but I'm lucky to get the one, and that's it. I'm okay with that, I'm content to not have a i-anything. I have a cheap MP3 player. I have a cheap phone. I have a mid-range computer, because it's important to our whole family to have at least one good one.

Some of these I bought with tax refunds, some on black friday.


This is a good point, many people I hear news stories about camping out in line aren't actually buying presents, this is the only legitimate way they can afford otherwise "luxury" items.
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TheChin! wrote:
Jythier wrote:
I just have such a small pittance of cash that there are some things I can only afford at Black Friday. Things that most of the rest of the middle class seem to have three or four of but I'm lucky to get the one, and that's it. I'm okay with that, I'm content to not have a i-anything. I have a cheap MP3 player. I have a cheap phone. I have a mid-range computer, because it's important to our whole family to have at least one good one.

Some of these I bought with tax refunds, some on black friday.


This is a good point, many people I hear news stories about camping out in line aren't actually buying presents, this is the only legitimate way they can afford otherwise "luxury" items.


Hah. Not likely. Most of those campers have their new purchase on eBay within minutes of buying it. They sit in the cold for 12 hours to turn a $250 profit on a game system or iSchmuck V.4 thing. Then, people with actual money cheerfully pay the extra loot on eBay to give the item to one of their carnivorous spawn on Christmas morning.

Like another person in this thread, I don't have the extra money to buy iThings at retail and that is a sure sign that buying them on sale is (for me) a poor financial decision. I do without, wait a year and buy them on Craigslist for 20% of what the Black Friday price was.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:

Sigh. Well. Thanks for the first half, anyway. Don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.


That's okay Dave, you're still young. You'll probably get it sometime in your 40's or 50's.

Oh, I see you're sporting a Bears micro-badge. How 'bout them Niners, eh?


Those 49er linebackers are for real, man. Look like Briggs and Urlacher did eight years ago. Good to see the team good again. And I'm glad Cutler didn't play with his concussion, since after being sacked that many times he'd probably be dead.
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
And I'm glad Cutler didn't play with his concussion, since after being sacked that many times he'd probably be dead.


I'm looking forward to him getting killed this weekend.


Before the game, or is this one of those things where we're sitting in a tree stand outside his front door?
 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
And I'm glad Cutler didn't play with his concussion, since after being sacked that many times he'd probably be dead.


I'm looking forward to him getting killed this weekend.


Before the game, or is this one of those things where we're sitting in a tree stand outside his front door?


Or are you thinking Jarred Allen might have a couple Miller Lites and hop in his truck again? I understand he does that on the regular.
 
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Column: Oh, no, on Black Thursday
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/11/20/black-frida...

This is what it has come to in our consumption-driven culture: We can't even set aside a whole day to cherish what we have without buying yet more.


Amen to this article, and to the OP

Stop the insanity.
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Stop worrying about what everyone else does and enjoy the holiday in whatever way you want to. I fail to see why people are so concerned with what other people in a free society choose to do with their own time.
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ChickenSedan wrote:
Stop worrying about what everyone else does and enjoy the holiday in whatever way you want to. I fail to see why people are so concerned with what other people in a free society choose to do with their own time.


Yup. I don't generally do any Black Friday shopping personally, but if that's what's fun for others, fine.

All this moaning about "this is what's wrong with America" is silly. People like having stuff and nobody's doing anything useful on Friday anyway, might as well go shopping.

I'll probably be working, personally, which honestly is not a whole hell of a lot better use of my time.
 
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Klenex is on sale at meyer, and our heavy whipping cream went bad. I'm sure glad there are stores out there open on Thanksgiving.
 
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Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jimbrax wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Klenex is on sale at meyer, and our heavy whipping cream went bad.


What are you up to on Thanksgiving!


Making hot chocolate and blowing my nose.

Though we have some whipping cream left over so who knows what will happen later.
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