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Subject: Over rationalizing the whole space / character / force conflicts. rss

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Paul DeStefano
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Old Ben Kenobi and the Falcon escape the Death Star. Neither could do it alone. It does not imply Kenobi physically attacking the death star or piloting.


Leia lost a confrontation with Tarkin. Alderaan is destroyed. It does not imply Leia was strong enough to block the beam and failed.


Ewoks + Han/Chewie strike team + Falcon + X-Wings vs AT-ST + Speeder Troopers + TIE fighters + Death Star is the climax of Jedi. It does not imply the ewoks attack the TIE fighters or the Death Star attacked Chewie.

Epics fight on many fronts.

Without that crazy old wizard on a tiny ledge, the Falcon would have stayed docked at the Death Star and who knows what other planets would be wiped out. Is it that far a jump to have any other Jedi defeat a Star Destroyer in a similar adventure? Or be captured?

And as we all know, the whole thing would be for nothing without the many Bothans who died getting that information. They weren't even there. Yet they allowed the force enabled heroes to get in and save the galaxy. Almost as if they were somehow involved in a force battle without using the force...


Star Wars is huge and multi-threaded. What happens in one arena often has impact at another.

If you don't want to wrap your head around a Rancor vs X-Wing match because it wasn't in the movies, OK.

I'm OK with it. Crafting the story to figure what happened is part of the game.

Is that X-Wing targeting the freighter carrying the Rancor? Did that Rancor kill the pilot of the X-Wing? Or was the targetting computer of the X-Wing dismantled to assemble a device to trap the Rancor? Whatever. Without ewoks, the second Death Star is unharmed.

It's a game. I can have fun in the story it creates.
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Matt Shinners
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Geosphere wrote:
I'm OK with it. Crafting the story to figure what happened is part of the game.


I'm willing to meet the creators of games half-way as far as creating a narrative goes.

What I'm not willing to do is create the whole story. From the looks of the game, that's what I have to do. So there's an Edge battle. If you didn't have the paragraph in the rulebook that told you what to imagine when that was going on, you'd have thousands of different interpretations. Same with committing people to the Force. They knew the narrative didn't shine through, so they excused it away and put it all on the player.

If that's what you want, that's fine. But don't pretend like the narratives you're writing are represented in the game. And when your stated intention from the design diaries was to create a cinematic experience, it makes it even worse.
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Guy Steuperaert
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As long as you have fun, thats ok with me.

However i used to play star wars ccg from decipher. Character could battle characters, ships ships although they could impact eachother. Have no idea why i stopped playing that game now that i think about it. It was very good.
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Casey Hughes
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I think the desire for a concrete theme translation gets overblown to a certain degree. Did I feel like I was creating a story every time I sat down to play the old SW CCG, no, but moments were thematic or at least memorable. Seeing an ewok take out Darth Vader and Boba Fett in one battle was pretty cool, but it was just one among many of improbably un-SW-like scenarios. (Ever Jedi Train a Jawa?) Those moments will probably exist in this game as well and I probably won't bat an eye other than get a good laugh when my ewok takes down a Star Destroyer.

If you stripped off SW, hardly anyone would even touch this game, but the fact that it is means people will. That's why I'm going to play it. Rancor taking out an X-wing? So what. I get to play with Rancors and X-wings again. I don't need the story to be perfect.
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Scott Egan
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They just shouldn't have made a Rancor, then the critics would lack the one major anti-theme argument to trumpet.
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Chris Wilcoxon
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ScottieATF wrote:
They just shouldn't have made a Rancor, then the critics would lack the one major anti-theme argument to trumpet.


and give the completionist fan boys something to bitch about
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Geosphere wrote:

Epics fight on many fronts.

Star Wars is huge and multi-threaded. What happens in one arena often has impact at another.

If you don't want to wrap your head around a Rancor vs X-Wing match because it wasn't in the movies, OK.

I'm OK with it. Crafting the story to figure what happened is part of the game.

Is that X-Wing targeting the freighter carrying the Rancor? Did that Rancor kill the pilot of the X-Wing? Or was the targetting computer of the X-Wing dismantled to assemble a device to trap the Rancor? Whatever. Without ewoks, the second Death Star is unharmed.

It's a game. I can have fun in the story it creates.


Queen's Gambit simulated what you are saying without having to be too abstract. We could just as easily take what you are saying and ally it to Star Wars stratego. Will that make it feel like a Star Wars game or just pasted on? Pasted on it is.

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Preston S
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I think the theme only feels pasted on if you're only looking at the basic rules of the game.

If you take the time to read the cards, build a deck, and sit down and play the game, you might find that there is plenty of theme in the abilities, interactions, and synergies. Abstracted, but not absent.

I'll have to play for myself and see, but that's my hope.
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Jimmie Andersson
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Quote:
I'm OK with it. Crafting the story to figure what happened is part of the game.

Is that X-Wing targeting the freighter carrying the Rancor? Did that Rancor kill the pilot of the X-Wing? Or was the targetting computer of the X-Wing dismantled to assemble a device to trap the Rancor? Whatever.


I really wanna like this game, but I feel the game should bring most of the theme to me, not the other way around... these examples are just too far fetched to make up during gameplay and get a feel for for me I fear... (but this is still a buy of course shake)
 
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Darrell Goodridge
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I have a feeling I'll be too caught up in comparing battle icons to care whether it's a space/ground unit. IE having fun. I mean if you want to talk immersion ruining, why not discuss why the X-Wing has less health than Obi-Wan Kenobi? Or why a Believer in the Old Ways has more firepower than Yoda? It all just proves the abstraction that you either accept in total or you reject in total. If you reject it, just accept that the game is not for you and move on.
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I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.
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Casey Hughes
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monkehbwoy wrote:
I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.


Maybe they don't care for Netrunner's theme. Like it or not, the Star Wars on the side of the box will draw more eyes than Netrunner's mechanics ever will.
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Alex Eding
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enchirito wrote:
I think the theme only feels pasted on if you're only looking at the basic rules of the game.

If you take the time to read the cards, build a deck, and sit down and play the game, you might find that there is plenty of theme in the abilities, interactions, and synergies. Abstracted, but not absent.

I'll have to play for myself and see, but that's my hope.


This is what people need to try. Try then decide. If you play it and like it, awesome! If you play it and don't like it, awesome! You'll have experienced it rather than waved disdain all over the internet.

Cardboardjunkie wrote:
I have a feeling I'll be too caught up in comparing battle icons to care whether it's a space/ground unit. IE having fun.


Breath of fresh air right there.
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houjix1138 wrote:
monkehbwoy wrote:
I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.


Maybe they don't care for Netrunner's theme. Like it or not, the Star Wars on the side of the box will draw more eyes than Netrunner's mechanics ever will.


Yes, of course. And it baffles me. It seems that all FFG has to do is wave a hand and people will buy their games. Or in this case put Star Wars on the side of the box and people will come screaming and frothing at their mouth and throw money at them.

What happened to critical thinking?

Hey, here's an idea. If you don't like the Android theme you can always pretend that the evil corporations agendas actually causes the dark side to grow a tiny ammount wich will cause the destruction of a rebel base on a planet far far away.
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Drew Dallas
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monkehbwoy wrote:
I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.


Luckily we are not forced to choose.

But if you'd like to know why I'd choose this over Netrunner for a dueling LCG it would be because Netrunner doesn't feel like a dueling game to me. To me Netrunner is a game of bluffing and card/economy management, and it is very fun, but I've never felt like it was a duel.
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Darksbane wrote:
monkehbwoy wrote:
I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.


Luckily we are not forced to choose.

But if you'd like to know why I'd choose this over Netrunner for a dueling LCG it would be because Netrunner doesn't feel like a dueling game to me. To me Netrunner is a game of bluffing and card/economy management, and it is very fun, but I've never felt like it was a duel.


Good description of one of my favs!
 
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Casey Hughes
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monkehbwoy wrote:
Yes, of course. And it baffles me. It seems that all FFG has to do is wave a hand and people will buy their games. Or in this case put Star Wars on the side of the box and people will come screaming and frothing at their mouth and throw money at them.

What happened to critical thinking?



Maybe people have thought about it.

I saw this mentioned in another thread about chess and comparing it to Netrunner which is weird as that was how I used to describe SW CCG compared to most other CCGs. It was chess, everything else was checkers.

I think chess it a wonderful game, as Netrunner may be, but I don't really feel like sitting down and playing it on a regular basis. Same with certain board games that have a great level of complexity, they are great once is a while. It's often the simpler ones, be it mechanics, setup, whatever that see a greater frequency at the table. SW LCG may be simpler, but simpler doesn't always mean bad.

The deck building alone has me really intrigued. While simpler on the surface, there's quite a lot going when you start analyzing the impact the group has on your deck as a whole. It's no longer just add 3x or 4x of all the good cards.(an over simiplification I know, but not completely far from the truth for some games). There's enough going on in the engagements that it makes it much more tactical than a game like Magic, but it plays quick enough to allow for multiple games to be played within a reasonable block of time.

There's room enough in the TCG/LCG landscape for SW for those that do not want the rich, but sometimes overwhelming experience of a game like Netrunner or AGOT, the OMG I can't believe this game has been going for almost 20 years and it's still just as dull as the day it was released Magic, or the WTH experience of Yu-gi-oh.


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I think a lot of people wanted a game that was a little more involved than "My strength 4 card attacks your strength 5 card and I use this +1 boost." At the moment it feels like whatever name and image is printed on the card is largely irrelevant, my Ewoks could destroy your Tie Fighter or your Mouse-droid could fight off my Nebulon-B.

And really that's how people are going to play it. Most of us are just going to throw down that 1 strength Mouse Droid to block the Nebulon-B, especially if we have a blaster we can give it which will add enough power to stave off defeat. Very few people will be making up some kind of narrative in their head that justifies a mouse droid with a blaster being able to take out a capital ship (I want to say none, but I'm sure someone will insist they do exactly this).

The real problem is that the game itself seems far too generic. Its just my creatures fighting your creatures before a timer ticks out. A lot of people wanted to see something akin to the old Decipher CCG (myself included), so can't help but be a little disappointed by what seems to be a fairly streamlined and generic looking game.

I would be interested to know if Fantasy Flight expected there to be a large tournament scene for this game and if that influenced their design choices.
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zethnar wrote:
A lot of people wanted to see something akin to the old Decipher CCG (myself included), so can't help but be a little disappointed by what seems to be a fairly streamlined and generic looking game.



I think this is one of the major barriers. Change is inevitable.
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Drew Dallas
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Cardboardjunkie wrote:
zethnar wrote:
A lot of people wanted to see something akin to the old Decipher CCG (myself included), so can't help but be a little disappointed by what seems to be a fairly streamlined and generic looking game.



I think this is one of the major barriers. Change is inevitable.


Exactly. The Decipher CCG was fun but the rules were a hot mess, and while the game could have a Star Wars feel more often than not you were getting force drained for a million by some operative off in the middle of nowhere. Especally in premier set there wasn't a ton of Star Wars feel and the game played horribly. In my opinion it took years for them to get it right and even when they did you still had decks that were degenerate and the whole game system encouraged decks which went out of their way to be non interactive.

IMO for card games like this good designs don't scream theme in the rules, the individual card need to do that job. The design needs to be a solid game system that provides fun interactive moments. I haven't played enough of the LCG to know for sure if it accomplishes this but from what I have played I see the potential being there. The theme will be fleshed out as more cards are released just like any other licensed game.
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zethnar wrote:
I think a lot of people wanted a game that was a little more involved than "My strength 4 card attacks your strength 5 card and I use this +1 boost." At the moment it feels like whatever name and image is printed on the card is largely irrelevant, my Ewoks could destroy your Tie Fighter or your Mouse-droid could fight off my Nebulon-B.

And really that's how people are going to play it. Most of us are just going to throw down that 1 strength Mouse Droid to block the Nebulon-B, especially if we have a blaster we can give it which will add enough power to stave off defeat. Very few people will be making up some kind of narrative in their head that justifies a mouse droid with a blaster being able to take out a capital ship (I want to say none, but I'm sure someone will insist they do exactly this).

The real problem is that the game itself seems far too generic. Its just my creatures fighting your creatures before a timer ticks out. A lot of people wanted to see something akin to the old Decipher CCG (myself included), so can't help but be a little disappointed by what seems to be a fairly streamlined and generic looking game.

I would be interested to know if Fantasy Flight expected there to be a large tournament scene for this game and if that influenced their design choices.


I don't understand what people are actually asking for here. You can't make a game that just tells a story while still being, you know, a game. If you want to relive the stories from the movies then watch the movies again.

The game is going to boil down to game mechanics, though, and at some point every card game involves comparing numbers printed on cards. What makes it a Star Wars game is the fact that your Strength 5 card says Luke Skywalker on it and you can put a lightsaber on this guy and you can play this guy and yell ITS A TRAP. Those are the things that make it Star Wars, there isn't some magical game mechanic out there that is the perfect representation of you how remember the movies.

If you don't LIKE these mechanics because you think they're bad mechanics, that's totally fine, but the theme is there no matter how how much people say it isn't.
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To see good game mechanics that invoke the theme see Star Wars Queens Gambit.

Jorune
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Scott Egan
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zethnar wrote:
I think a lot of people wanted a game that was a little more involved than "My strength 4 card attacks your strength 5 card and I use this +1 boost." At the moment it feels like whatever name and image is printed on the card is largely irrelevant, my Ewoks could destroy your Tie Fighter or your Mouse-droid could fight off my Nebulon-B.


You are grossly misrepresenting how combat in this game works.

The fact that a card is called Mon Mothma means nothing. The fact that that cards provides you a tactical edge, through the tactic icon and here inherent initiative bonus, is what makes it thematic as Mon Mothma.
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Scott Egan
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monkehbwoy wrote:
I think the biggest concern is the mediocre and dull mechanics, the high ammount of abstraction doesn't help.

Why anyone interested in a dueling lcg would choose this over Netrunner is beyond me.


Have you actually played this game? I can understand some of the thematic complaints (no Star Wars game could ever satisfy some of this boards detractors) and I can understand someone not liking the game play (even the 'best' games aren't for everyone), but what basis do you have to call it dull or mediocre? The sheer amount of decisions you have to make with every card, to play or save for edge battles, what/when to attack/defend, and how to best leverage icons in battle, really gives a lot of tactical depth.

People want to tout the Decipher CCG, but they forget all of the issues. The game played well if you built decks to play against each other. In competitive play you'd be lucky to see a battle in many games. It very often turned to solitaire

AGoT for all of it's accolades is typically downright boring in regards to actual combat. It's a dynamic game overall but combat is just a straight arithmetic match-up. Few decks fight to turn the tide, most just block to stop the unopposed bonus.
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Johan Larsson
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Some excellent points here about the comparison to the decipher game, a game that had many years to mature as a product. Any comparison made would really have to be about the basic decipher set and nothing else. Also, the game does have a ton of feeling, in art, objectives, themes. The battles are actually a lot less bland (from looking at rules) than in most other card games. Edge battles, alternate striking order where the attacker chooses the targets and casualties, combined with the different icon effects and cards should provide a lot of tactics to engagements. I'll withhold final judgement until I've played it and so should you.

To say that the game brings "nothing in theme and might as well be stratego" seems misleading. Again, all of the art, the objectives, the Death Star dial, the force commitment mechanic an so on are present and the cards carry icons appropriate in most cases to the characters abilities and role. Take "super laser blast" from the "ultimate power" objective set themed around the Death Star, play it and blow up an objective. No fighting needed, ultimate power indeed! Insert obligatory "now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station" or "you may fire when ready". Or look at the trench run card, play to attack the dial directly and win immediately if destroyed. Theme? I'd say yes. Very much so.
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