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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Fight" effects -- when? rss

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David Weiss
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When I picked up the game I only had time to give the rules a swift run-through. I assumed "Fight" effects were like "Battle" effects from Thunderstone--they resolved once the villain was defeated.

HOWEVER, later, when I had a chance to read the rules more closely, I wondered if this was in fact the intent of the designer, since it says that Fight effects happen 'before comparing strengths with the villain' (I don't have the rules in front of me at the moment).

Interpreting the rule this way seems to make the game more clunky and unwieldly--besides which, it then should have been the first bullet point instead of the third or fourth. This makes me wonder if the intended wording was that Fight effects resolve before the NEXT strength comparison occurs (if the Hero decides to fight another, different, villain).

Anyone?
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Cameron McKenzie
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tiberiusdw wrote:
When I picked up the game I only had time to give the rules a swift run-through. I assumed "Fight" effects were like "Battle" effects from Thunderstone--they resolved once the villain was defeated.

HOWEVER, later, when I had a chance to read the rules more closely, I wondered if this was in fact the intent of the designer, since it says that Fight effects happen 'before comparing strengths with the villain' (I don't have the rules in front of me at the moment).

Interpreting the rule this way seems to make the game more clunky and unwieldly--besides which, it then should have been the first bullet point instead of the third or fourth. This makes me wonder if the intended wording was that Fight effects resolve before the NEXT strength comparison occurs (if the Hero decides to fight another, different, villain).

Anyone?


I don't think it matters much since resolving the Fight effect shouldn't change your attack power. I will agree that the rule is confusing because it seems to suggest that you might somehow resolve the Fight effect and not defeat the villain, which I don't think is possible.
 
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The Chaz
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You know, that's a good point!
There is a strength 6 or 7 villain whose FIGHT effect is "KO all your S.H.I.E.L.D. cards" (or something like that).

So first I KO all those cards, but then I'm not able to fight?!?

"You can only attack if you have at least as much Attack as the Villain's Attack..."

So... Which is it?!?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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The Chaz wrote:
You know, that's a good point!
There is a strength 6 or 7 villain whose FIGHT effect is "KO all your S.H.I.E.L.D. cards" (or something like that).

So first I KO all those cards, but then I'm not able to fight?!?

"You can only attack if you have at least as much Attack as the Villain's Attack..."

So... Which is it?!?


You gain the Recruit or Power points when you play a Hero, even if that Hero is KOed from play afterwards. So, having a Hero KOed from play would never cause your attack to go down.
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The Chaz
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Well said, Cameron. That's all I needed to know!
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Matthew McFarland
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Fight effects are resolved after choosing to fight a villain but before comparing strength totals. The order matters, given some of the schemes potentially pumping up villains (like Midtown Bank Robbery and Unending Hydra--or whatever it's called--for example). It's pretty clear in the fight section, and I actually think it's how Thunderstone Advance handles Battle effects now, except here your attack can't go down.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Eyefink wrote:
Fight effects are resolved after choosing to fight a villain but before comparing strength totals. The order matters, given some of the schemes potentially pumping up villains (like Midtown Bank Robbery and Unending Hydra--or whatever it's called--for example). It's pretty clear in the fight section, and I actually think it's how Thunderstone Advance handles Battle effects now, except here your attack can't go down.


Those aren't Fight effects though, and you would have to consider them before even choosing to fight the villain.

You really have to check the attack values before resolving the Attack, or players could just freely pick villains and resolve the fight effect even if they couldn't beat them. So, what is the point of checking the totals again after resolving the Fight effect? They can't change as a result of the Fight.
 
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Jared Voshall
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I suspect it's future-proofing. You are entirely correct that, right now, there's nothing that can reduce the Fighting totals. Right now, if they had left that section out, it would make absolutely no difference.
However, if, in the future, they put out a Villain with the effect of "Fight: Reduce the total Attack of a player by the number of Bystanders this villain has captured" (or gains Attack, or any variation thereof), we would end up with a useless ability - You have enough Fight to attack the villain, he gains, for example, +2 Attack, beating your Attack now, and... there's no contingency to handle this situation outside of common sense. With this in place, they can play with effects like this, and it opens up design space that they may or may not use immediately.
In other words, just because it's meaningless now does not mean it will always be so.
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Matthew McFarland
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I still think in the case of Endless Armies of Hydra, drawing a Bystander with the Bank Robbery scheme would end up raising it's strength and potentially causing the fight to be lost if they're closest to the deck. Obviously a fringe case, but still.
 
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Devin Low
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Hi guys,

Apologies that the third bullet under "How to Fight a Villain" on page 13 ended up a little confusing. That bullet should just say "If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says." It shouldn't say "prior to comparing to Attack totals." So to recap, to fight a Villain you:

● Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
● Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
● If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!

Devin Low meeple
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Matthew McFarland
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I stand corrected! That would add a little more tensions to fights, though...
 
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The Chaz
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Apology accepted!
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Magius wrote:
"Fight: Reduce the total Attack of a player by the number of Bystanders this villain has captured" (or gains Attack, or any variation thereof), we would end up with a useless ability - You have enough Fight to attack the villain, he gains, for example, +2 Attack, beating your Attack now, and... there's no contingency to handle this situation outside of common sense.


If they wanted to make the villain harder to defeat, they could simply print "Gains 1[power] for each bystander". They wouldn't print it as a Fight effect because it would constantly be in effect.

Technically the ability you described above wouldn't be completely meaningless as it may make it more difficult if you intend to defeat multiple villains and more than one of them had that ability (or you did not fight that villain last for some reason)
 
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David Weiss
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Yay! Occam's Razor wins again! (ie, my original interrpretation was, in fact, correct).

Thanks for the quick response, Devin. I and my friends are really enjoying this game. We love how the powers link thematically with the heroes and villains, and how the mix of heroes, henchmen, villains, Master Villain, and Scheme result in real replayability! Great job!

(And hoping for a Fantastic Four and/or Power Pack expansion!)

David

devinlow wrote:
Hi guys,

Apologies that the third bullet under "How to Fight a Villain" on page 13 ended up a little confusing. That bullet should just say "If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says." It shouldn't say "prior to comparing to Attack totals." So to recap, to fight a Villain you:

● Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
● Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
● If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!

Devin Low meeple
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Josh
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So fight should be fought?
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Joel Carlson
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devinlow wrote:
Hi guys,

Apologies that the third bullet under "How to Fight a Villain" on page 13 ended up a little confusing. That bullet should just say "If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says." It shouldn't say "prior to comparing to Attack totals." So to recap, to fight a Villain you:

● Expend Attack equal to that Villain's Attack to defeat it.
● Put the defeated Villain and any Bystanders it had captured into your personal Victory Pile.
● If the Villain card has a "Fight" effect on it, do what it says.

Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!

Devin Low meeple
Designer, Legendary


This is a great clarification; thanks!
 
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Bill Hartman
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So if we fight the Mastermind, and the tactic card gives +3 fight, does that allow us to spend those fight points remaining to take out a henchman?
 
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Devin Low
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Hi Bill,

Yes, that's right. If you had some other Attack left over, you also might be able to use that +3 Attack to fight a tougher Villain instead, or even fight the Mastermind again.

Cheers,

Devin Low meeple
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Dan Weber
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Likewise if I'd just played enough fight to defeat a villain, but the villain's fight is KO a hero that effect would come afterward, so I wouldn't be reduced to lower than what I needed and lose the fight, right?
 
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Bill Hartman
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Keltheos wrote:
Likewise if I'd just played enough fight to defeat a villain, but the villain's fight is KO a hero that effect would come afterward, so I wouldn't be reduced to lower than what I needed and lose the fight, right?


Yes, I Believe that effect would come after.
 
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Devin Low
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Hi Dan,

That's right. In particular, page 15 notes under "KO":

Quote:
If you KO a Hero you already played this turn, you still get to use the Recruit Points, Attack, and special abilities that Hero produced.


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Griffon Gaming
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We had a situation last night that this came into play. I just want to make sure with this ruling how it should have gone. We had a city full of villains. One of the Villains was Viper from Hydra and she was on the Bridge. Her overrun ability says that if you don't have a Hydra villain in your victory pile you get a wound. There was a different Hydra villain on the board (I can't remember his name) that whose Fight ability was Draw 2 cards from the Villain deck and play them. We killed this guy which caused us to draw 2 more villains and Viper overran (overrunned?). The person who defeated the original Hydra villain did not have any other Hydra villains in their victory pile.

In this case, would she:

A) Not get a wound because the Draw 2 villain goes to the victory pile before his Fight ability takes place, or
B) Get a wound because the Fight ability kicks in before everything is resolved.

From what I'm gathering the answer would be A.
 
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Pretty sure you're right.

Also, in the Heroes game, Villains escape. In the Villains game, Adversaries overrun. Not that it really makes a difference.
 
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C Sandifer
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devinlow wrote:
Fortunately, as some people on the thread have noted, there are hardly any situations where that [Fight] timing question really ends up affecting things. Sorry about that!


As time has gone on, the Fight description in the rulebook has caused more and more trouble - up to and including the Homecoming expansion (e.g., the timing of Fight and Danger Sense effects).

Any chance of a Core rulebook update in the future? I'm a bit surprised that the above clarification hasn't been incorporated into later printings. Or has it? I didn't see changes to the online rulebook, anyway.

We had to track down this very thread, for instance, to figure out certain Fight-related timing issues. Stupid rules arguments.
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