Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Bonaparte at Marengo» Forums » General

Subject: Related Games? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Keith Anderson
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
I'll play the Klingons
badge
I'll play the Klingons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are constantly new hex based wargames being released. When this game came out I initially believed that its territorites, block and general combat systems would get used in other games by other designers. To my knowledge this has not been the case.

Do other designers not find this system suitable for further development, is their a lack of interest, are they afraid that developing a game with these systems would look to much like copying the system (whereas it seems commonly acceptable in hex board designs with the usual combat methods)?

Any ideas? I'd just like to see this developed in many ways. Great system.
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Harrison
United States
Fisher
Illinois
flag msg tools
So long ...
badge
... and thanks for all the fish.
Avatar
mb
Same designer, but have you played Napoleon's Triumph?
10 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also for consideration, Baptism at Bull Run.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
In addition to the two previously mentioned games I think the delay has to do with the designer's hand injury. Also, he likes to take his time with his designs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Anderson
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
I'll play the Klingons
badge
I'll play the Klingons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am aware of Napoleon's Triumph and the designer's post regarding his physical health. However, I was referring to the lack of this system being developed by other designers. There seems to be a lack of other designers further developing this system (meant in the most positive "humans take existing products and develop, refine, improve, or cast them in their own way light) as compared to the constant recasting of hex based wargame systems.

I had forgotten about Baptism at Bull Run by Mr Koller. I have yet to play it but I will now make that a priority. This kind of development by another designer where they take this system and alter it with other systems and design choices is an example of what I had in mind. This happens constantly with traditional hex systems and I had originally hoped when this system was first released that it would see similar develoopment.

The main system that I'm thinking of is that each border to a territory is its own area for placing and facing troops such that territories replace hexes while maintaining unit direction and 'committment'.

Thanks
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
This is Kyoshi, our adopted Shiba Inu.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have a plan to do what you are talking about, but haven't been able to start yet. I'm also surprised that others haven't done this yet.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Collins
Canada
Prince Rupert
British Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, the Eagles Of The Empire group of games use the area layout on the maps. The game mechanics are way different, but from what I've read, you get a similar flavor to the Simmons games. There are probably other examples (some of the block games use area movement/control).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stuart
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know whether this is a factor in other designers not copying Bowen's innovation, but it seems to me that the details of the rules are not only very era-dependent, but also battle-dependent, and that creation of the map will of necessity be a long and laborious process.

In contrast, it's easy to make a hex-and-counter map. Take a map, add the roads and terrain features, and then overlay a hex system. Secondly, a mechanic which works in one game will almost certainly work in another from the same period.

Bowen has now produced three different games, and for all three, the details in the rules are significantly different -- different enough that one cannot use any particular ruleset in any of the other games (it would destroy the game). To make a game on, say, Shiloh or Murfreesboro, for instance, based on Bowen's system for Guns of Gettysburg, would take a lot of work and require some significantly new details in the rules.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
This is Kyoshi, our adopted Shiba Inu.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bob_santafe wrote:
I don't know whether this is a factor in other designers not copying Bowen's innovation, but it seems to me that the details of the rules are not only very era-dependent, but also battle-dependent, and that creation of the map will of necessity be a long and laborious process.

In contrast, it's easy to make a hex-and-counter map. Take a map, add the roads and terrain features, and then overlay a hex system. Secondly, a mechanic which works in one game will almost certainly work in another from the same period.

Bowen has now produced three different games, and for all three, the details in the rules are significantly different -- different enough that one cannot use any particular ruleset in any of the other games (it would destroy the game). To make a game on, say, Shiloh or Murfreesboro, for instance, based on Bowen's system for Guns of Gettysburg, would take a lot of work and require some significantly new details in the rules.


Based on my recent experience working on a new, similar design, I agree with all of this, except the part about hex maps being easy to make. Or at least, a decent looking hex map.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nagato Fujibayashi

Athens
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, but it's not even necessary to copy the rules of a game into another. As the OP, I have repeatedly expressed my hope that other games of this type will be designed and published(believe me, if I could I would do it myself without any problem of admitting that I 100% copied the idea of Simmons-why to deny him the credit anyway?). The way I put it is that I would like to see games not of this "system" or "ruleset" but games of this "type" or "format" meaning the following characteristics:

1.carefully studied area maps as opposed to hexes
2.long wooden blocks that give emphasis on facing
3.short rulebooks(GoG max size)
4.diceless combat
5.rules containing numerous strategic and tactical consequences indirectly

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scipio O.
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
shinobu wrote:
I would like to see games not of this "system" or "ruleset" but games of this "type" or "format" meaning the following characteristics:

1.carefully studied area maps as opposed to hexes
2.long wooden blocks that give emphasis on facing
3.short rulebooks(GoG max size)
4.diceless combat
5.rules containing numerous strategic and tactical consequences indirectly


I like your breakdown of criteria. I think the achieving the whole package is a labor of love requiring a significant level of skill, focus and passion. It's unlikely that that investment is being fully compensated by the limited market for these amazing games. Clearly the work involved in the map itself is a major factor. But your list makes clear there's more that we're looking for here than simply moving past hexes (eg the Eagles series).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
shinobu wrote:
4.diceless combat

To reduce ambiguity, I'd say "randomless combat" (or "deterministic combat" or some such), as there exist various wargames with random combat resolved by cards, chit draws, etc, instead of dice, and I assume you're intending to exclude any kind of randomness in the combat resolution. (Right?)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.