Eric B.
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I really like Biggs (in fact, I don't really play Rebels without him anymore). Coupled with R2-F2, he's forcing TIEs to shoot at him typically rolling 2-Dice against his 3-Agility and cutting down the Imperial players' attack efficiency by quite a bit in the first few rounds of engagement.

With the bit of Wave 2 we've seen already, I'm eagerly awaiting being able to run:

Wedge Antilles (29)
• Draw Their Fire (1)
• R2-D2 (4)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Biggs Darklighter (25)
• R2-F2 (3)
• Shield Upgrade (4)
Dutch Vander (23)
• Ion Cannon (5)
• R5-K6 (2)

Biggs gains another shield and Wedge can take all of his Critical Hits (and then regain his lost shields via Artoo), really extending Biggs' annoying presence while Wedge plucks away at TIEs with Focus+TL on every attack.

But, once I start thinking about Imperial squads bringing potentially five 3-Die Attacking Interceptors, I start to wonder if Biggs will be viable anymore. Forcing the Empire to make a lot of sub-optimal 2vs3 die attacks makes Biggs worthwhile, but once they start rolling 3v3 die attacks, Biggs will be soaking up damage much more quickly (even if the Empire is making one or two less attacks than normal).

Has anyone else mused about Biggs' future once the Empire's shipyards start churning out interceptors?
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Bob Smithy

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I don't use him anyways, so I can't comment. But I do think that the interceptors are highly overrated, especially seeing as how a well-placed shot could take out a unique pilot worth 25% of your squad. The X-wing at least gets to fire back, so I don't see much for the imperials besides the Firespray. I'm predicting a falcon+2 a-wing meta vs the high-skill imperial pilots.
 
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Alex Brown
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I've been reading a few of these threads and I think you're on your own tangent Rogue Thirteen. There are lots of assumptions you're making about metagames, player skill and the general worthiness of X-Wing as a competitive game that feel overblown or overwrought.

I'm not going to tell you how to play but I think your tremendous competitive energies might be see more reward in a more widely-accepted competitive game, like Warmachine.
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Three Headed Monkey
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RogueThirteen wrote:
I really like Biggs (in fact, I don't really play Rebels without him anymore). Coupled with R2-F2, he's forcing TIEs to shoot at him typically rolling 2-Dice against his 3-Agility and cutting down the Imperial players' attack efficiency by quite a bit in the first few rounds of engagement.

With the bit of Wave 2 we've seen already, I'm eagerly awaiting being able to run:

Wedge Antilles (29)
• Draw Their Fire (1)
• R2-D2 (4)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Biggs Darklighter (25)
• R2-F2 (3)
• Shield Upgrade (4)
Dutch Vander (23)
• Ion Cannon (5)
• R5-K6 (2)

Biggs gains another shield and Wedge can take all of his Critical Hits (and then regain his lost shields via Artoo), really extending Biggs' annoying presence while Wedge plucks away at TIEs with Focus+TL on every attack.

But, once I start thinking about Imperial squads bringing potentially five 3-Die Attacking Interceptors, I start to wonder if Biggs will be viable anymore. Forcing the Empire to make a lot of sub-optimal 2vs3 die attacks makes Biggs worthwhile, but once they start rolling 3v3 die attacks, Biggs will be soaking up damage much more quickly (even if the Empire is making one or two less attacks than normal).

Has anyone else mused about Biggs' future once the Empire's shipyards start churning out interceptors?


I have to agree that you are making a big assumption regarding the mass use of inteceptors. For starters I doubt players will buy the full five. Also, the fact that at the cheapest level you can only field a max of five of them, and they are as easy to kill as a TIE fighter. I'm saying it wont be a build, but it will be a balanced build because it is essentially a glass cannon. Sure, it can hit hard but they can go down fast too. So I don't think you will see them everywhere as I don't think they are a straight replacement for normal TIE fighters.

It's too early to speculate on the finer points of potential meta when we don't actually properly know what the current meta is.
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Jeremy Steward
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Well, I appreciate your "competitive energies" Rogue Thirteen I will never be in a tournament but I do enjoy playing the game competitively with my friends.

I'm not sure where I stand on the interceptors, and I think until I use them I wont know for sure.
3 attack dice is a lot of power. A couple weekends ago I played 4 games in a row - 8 ties vs 4 x-wings, testing to see if the 8 tie swarm was OP or not. The X-wings won 3 games to 1. (I was controlling both sides however.) But it made me see how much firepower the X-wings bring to the table. It happened a few times where a rookie pilot at range 1 completely one-shot a full health evading Tie (4 hits - 0 evades). Its scary to think the Interceptor with that. But, it was also quite common for the rebels to take down 2 Tie Fighters in the opening exchange (while usually losing biggs) The problem with Tie Interceptors is that since they have the same HP as the Tie Fighters, they are just as vulnerable to concentrated fire from multiple x-wings, and more points go down with them with every kill.

I think in the post interceptor environment, pilot skill will be very important for the rebels as to ensure that you are attacking first.

Honestly, I really don't think the y-wing is going to cut it. Just plain not enough firepower to take the Ties down fast enough, and the 1 agility to 3 attack just means its going to be eaten alive. I still think Biggs will be fine. Especially in the opening engagement, the imps are going to focus on someone, it might as well be Biggs with additional defense.

On a bit of a side note: I wonder which would be the better swarm squad: 5 Tie interceptors (at 19 pts that would put them at 95 pts - I really hope 3 skill TIs are not 20 pts...) or 4 TIs & 2 TFs (100 pts)
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Eric B.
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:

I have to agree that you are making a big assumption regarding the mass use of inteceptors. For starters I doubt players will buy the full five.


Well, there need not be mass interceptor usage, just enough of a threat of running into an interceptor-based squad (be it in tournaments, leagues, or pick-up games) to make bringing a Biggs squad less tempting.


Also, apologies to those who feel I and other like-minded folk are treating this game too competitively -- certainly feel free to ignore the discussions. A robust and healthy tournament environment was for me the biggest draw about this game. Anyone who wants to take it more casually is certainly welcomed to, but I figure the Strategy Forum is the best place for discussion of the competitive aspect of the game.

Just trying to foster interesting/novel discourse. Without the strategy discussions these boards would be:
-20% threads asking how many Core Sets to buy
-20% threads asking how Ion Cannons and shields work
-20% threads speculating about Wave 3 and beyond
-20% threads complaining about price / Wave 2 delay
-20% threads offering awesome house rule variants and custom content (love these)
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i don't play competitively, but my mind revels in the Strategic opportunities that X-Wing provides. So go forth with such discussions!

If I were to hypothesise, Biggs might not be useless, but his life expectancy will probably be shortened against Interceptors, assuming same number of ships taking attacks.

And I completely agree with the "glass cannon" notion. Having more attack than a T/F but same fragility just makes it a priority target for me.
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Ted Von Penguin
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I think Biggs will do just fine. While the Interceptors have the same firepower as an X-wing they don't have target lock and have much less health. They might be faster and more nimble but their damage per shots will probably be slightly worse than the X-wing.
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Scott Egan
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RogueThirteen wrote:
I really like Biggs (in fact, I don't really play Rebels without him anymore). Coupled with R2-F2, he's forcing TIEs to shoot at him typically rolling 2-Dice against his 3-Agility and cutting down the Imperial players' attack efficiency by quite a bit in the first few rounds of engagement.

With the bit of Wave 2 we've seen already, I'm eagerly awaiting being able to run:

Wedge Antilles (29)
• Draw Their Fire (1)
• R2-D2 (4)
• Proton Torpedoes (4)
Biggs Darklighter (25)
• R2-F2 (3)
• Shield Upgrade (4)
Dutch Vander (23)
• Ion Cannon (5)
• R5-K6 (2)

Biggs gains another shield and Wedge can take all of his Critical Hits (and then regain his lost shields via Artoo), really extending Biggs' annoying presence while Wedge plucks away at TIEs with Focus+TL on every attack.

But, once I start thinking about Imperial squads bringing potentially five 3-Die Attacking Interceptors, I start to wonder if Biggs will be viable anymore. Forcing the Empire to make a lot of sub-optimal 2vs3 die attacks makes Biggs worthwhile, but once they start rolling 3v3 die attacks, Biggs will be soaking up damage much more quickly (even if the Empire is making one or two less attacks than normal).

Has anyone else mused about Biggs' future once the Empire's shipyards start churning out interceptors?


Honestly, I have to laugh at this. We at least need to know the Interceptor actually is before we can approach this subject in a real manner. We don't have costs, pilots, or upgrades to even really start the theory-machine prior to testing.

You've (and others) made some negative comments about A-Wings, but only knowing base stats. Then we see Assault Missiles and we get people screaming out DOOOOM! still not knowing the full picture. Let alone testing. We just don't know enough.

Lets get a complete-ish picture before we start on with the theory.

Have you played with Biggs vs a Rebel squad? That will give you a current indication of how he can handle a more offensive fighter attacking him. He still lasts but not as long. But he only needs to last long enough to put you ahead, so if there are less targets then he need to hang for less time.

I get it, you desperately want to have some varying squad options so there can be a real strategic depth and conversation, but just knowing 3-3-3-0 and probably less then 21 points doesn't give us what we need to really make this thread worth while.
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Scott Egan
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Alex Brown wrote:
I've been reading a few of these threads and I think you're on your own tangent Rogue Thirteen. There are lots of assumptions you're making about metagames, player skill and the general worthiness of X-Wing as a competitive game that feel overblown or overwrought.

I'm not going to tell you how to play but I think your tremendous competitive energies might be see more reward in a more widely-accepted competitive game, like Warmachine.


So if you don't want to talk about the game in a competitive sense why go into the Strategy sections to a thread about min-maxing?

FFG clearly thinks of this as a game with a tournament scene. They are offering early release of their product as tournament prizing, that is a huge deal. Miniatures games do not do that. Also FFG's play testing instructions do mention spending time looking at the game in that light. They do not view it as a casual only game.

As a high-level Warmachine player I do see this game being competitively viable
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Three Headed Monkey
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I feel that while an Interceptors can take down Biggs quicker, there will be less of them. The impact comes from an individual shot having more potential, and reducing the effectiveness of R2-F2.

Still, I think he will remain viable. After all, there is nothing wrong with him absorbing your opponents powerful attacks, rather than Wedge copping it.
 
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RogueThirteen wrote:
Anyone who wants to take it more casually is certainly welcomed to, but I figure the Strategy Forum is the best place for discussion of the competitive aspect of the game.

Just trying to foster interesting/novel discourse. Without the strategy discussions these boards would be:
-20% threads asking how many Core Sets to buy
-20% threads asking how Ion Cannons and shields work
-20% threads speculating about Wave 3 and beyond
-20% threads complaining about price / Wave 2 delay
-20% threads offering awesome house rule variants and custom content (love these)


I think we need a Fluff Forum if people don't like the Strategy Forum!

From what I've seen, X-Wing is perfectly capable of being treated as a competitive game with a tournament scene, as well as a pick-up-and play game. Adherents to one scene shouldn't be scared off by the other.

You're a good man and a damn fine pilot Rogue Thirteen. And if those yellow-bellies in the General Forum can't handle it, I say let 'em hang, while we risk life and astromech to keep the skies free.
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The R5Donth Star II
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Don't we know from the preview shot that the basic interceptor is

19
3
3
3
0
Focus, Evade, Barrel Roll, Boost
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Three Headed Monkey
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Yeah, but we have no idea what abilities the named pilots will be bringing to the table, so it is hard to judge what the future meta will be like.
 
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The swarm build can still be played, to test relative strength of at least one build. The only variable when it was originally spoiled was how Boost would work, now we know.

I'm thinking

Howlrunner with Shield Upgrade & Swarm Tactics 22 pts
Tie Interceptor Basic x 4
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Jeremy Steward
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Im not completely convinced that the named interceptor pilots will make thatbig of an impact. Sure, firing first will be nice, but unless they have a defensive ability, they are just going to get shot down real quick by xwings and the imps will have just lost even more points. 1/4 of your squad with only 3 HP is iffy to me.

I really want to see the named Awing pilot abilities before making wave 2 rebel squads tho.
 
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R5Don4 wrote:
The swarm build can still be played, to test relative strength of at least one build. The only variable when it was originally spoiled was how Boost would work, now we know.

I'm thinking

Howlrunner with Shield Upgrade & Swarm Tactics 22 pts
Tie Interceptor Basic x 4


Forgot to mention the other unknown, of course being the Interceptor's movement dial. I'm not really expecting it to be much different than the basic TIE's which is already the best in the game.
 
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Eric B.
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R5Don4 wrote:
Forgot to mention the other unknown, of course being the Interceptor's movement dial. I'm not really expecting it to be much different than the basic TIE's which is already the best in the game.


Yea, since each ship has to have the same number of available maneuvers, I'm expecting it will either be the exact same as the basic TIE wheel (with the Boost action option, of course) or perhaps will have a few more Green maneuvers to represent it's better overall maneuver. Either way, I don't think we'll be too surprised by the wheel.

At the worst case, once revealed the named interceptors will be underwhelming, but even then that won't make the basic interceptors any less appealing. Best case, some of them will be quite potent in squads. Either way, I'm sure some non-negligible portion of Imperial squads will have interceptors in them.

DeadWolf wrote:
I really want to see the named Awing pilot abilities before making wave 2 rebel squads tho.


Well, it looks to me like Tycho's ability will have something to do with Stress Tokens (I'm guessing that he can still perform Actions while stressed, but it's hard to make it out with certainty)--that A-Wing promo shot did have a lot of Stress Tokens so maybe he can gain Stress as a cost for other benefits. I'm quite excited to see "Green Leader" (Arvel), since if he follows the pattern of Red and Gold Leader he'll spread an Evade token around, which would be exceptionally interesting for squad building (most notably Biggs squads). I suppose we'll find out 'soon' with the Kessel Run prizes.
 
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Joe Rickard
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RogueThirteen wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Forgot to mention the other unknown, of course being the Interceptor's movement dial. I'm not really expecting it to be much different than the basic TIE's which is already the best in the game.


Yea, since each ship has to have the same number of available maneuvers..


Of the 4 ships availble the TFs have 16 maneuvers and the other 3 have 15 so the number of maneuvers can vary.
 
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Alex Brown
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ScottieATF wrote:

So if you don't want to talk about the game in a competitive sense why go into the Strategy sections to a thread about min-maxing?


This is definitely the place for this discussion, and I'm only making passing comment as to the general intensity Rogue Thirteen brings perhaps not seeing just desserts.

It's not that I think he's wrong. Personally I think the game has too much variance (with prominent dice and and the potential to game maneuver templates) to be worthwhile 'breaking'.

Of course you guys think differently, but I think this sort of high-level thinking deserves a better game contest. Sure FFG supports competition, why not? I'd be amazed if they considered the way the spam-TIE builds 'abuse' the collision rules. I think it's still an 'experience' game rather than a bona fide tournament-viable game.

To each their own. I'm certainly not going to say don't try to be the best. I just doubt it's worth it from what I've seen so far.
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Eric B.
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Alex Brown wrote:
ScottieATF wrote:

So if you don't want to talk about the game in a competitive sense why go into the Strategy sections to a thread about min-maxing?

This is definitely the place for this discussion, and I'm only making passing comment as to the general intensity Rogue Thirteen brings perhaps not seeing just desserts.

It's not that I think he's wrong. Personally I think the game has too much variance (with prominent dice and and the potential to game maneuver templates) to be worthwhile 'breaking'.


I think this is a very legitimate point worth consideration. I waver on where I myself stand on the question of how much the game outcome simply depends on luck (the rolls), but at this point I'm cautiously optimistic that the game offers enough reward for strategy and skill, but after more play experience (local league, a few tournaments, pick-up games) I might think otherwise, of course.

What the game does have going for it is that playing is as fun as thinking about squad-building. I'll use Magic as an example, but the following comparison would also apply to plenty of other competitive deck/army/squad building games: While I've always enjoyed Magic, deck-building is the only really fun and rewarding part of the game (to me at least). Games are pretty much decided when decks are set down and they mostly play themselves--there's not a terribly high amount of meaningful decisions (ie decisions that aren't obvious) during the game. What I like about X-Wing is that it's fun to think about squad composition and it's fun to play the actual game with a lot of seemingly meaningful decisions to be made during it. But, with dice being thrown for defense, there's certainly a chance that all those decisions won't actually often enough compensate for die results or any inherent advantages between builds. I hope those decisions are more important, in general, but that's not something any of us can yet know and it's a legitimate open question. For now, I'm assuming strategy and skill sufficiently matter and I'll keep trying to foster discussions about such.

Certainly one of the strengths of "swarm" builds (be they Rebel or Imperial) is that they are less susceptible to the mercy of unfavorable strings of unlucky rolls because they have more ships if they do lose one/some to uncharacteristically few attacks (whereas a three ship Rebel build, for instance, is pretty much doomed if they lose a ship in such a manner), plus swarms are rolling more attacks each turn, so can expect a better and more normalized damage output result. [Ironically, it's the game's potential for really lucky rolls paired against really bad rolls that the Anti-Stats/Anti-Math crowd celebrate as part of their position dismissing the stats on expected damage, though I still of course disagree--just because there's a chance someone might be ridiculously lucky with red dice while his/her opponent throws terrible green dice, it doesn't mean 5x Y-Wings is suddenly anything but a laughable build in a 100pt dogfight against TIEs, for instance.]

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Jak of Shadows

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Alex Brown wrote:
I've been reading a few of these threads and I think you're on your own tangent Rogue Thirteen. There are lots of assumptions you're making about metagames, player skill and the general worthiness of X-Wing as a competitive game that feel overblown or overwrought.

I'm not going to tell you how to play but I think your tremendous competitive energies might be see more reward in a more widely-accepted competitive game, like Warmachine.


You vastly overestimate how strategic those other games are. Those other games are for people who think they are strategic masterminds but aren't. The superficial complexity of rules and stats masks how simple the games really are. None of the "strategic" complexity in any of these games comes close to games like Chess or Go. You can come down off your high horse.
 
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