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Subject: The New-ish RSP Moderation Policy Is Not Good For Me rss

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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Double thumbs down. This is getting old really fast. Actually, it was old as soon as they changed the policy and after the few days it took all of the resident trolls and mean spirited people to test the new waters. Now it's just annoying and plain disappointing.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not some sort of shining beacon on a hill of politeness and respect, but that doesn't preclude me from thinking we should all be nicer to each other and that BGG should help that along to a reasonable extent.

As a preemptive defense, I will now remind you that this is my opinion. It is how I feel about RSP moderation and therefore is correct for me. There is no need to insult me or attack me over it. Feel free to post your opinions, too. I assume I am still in a relatively small minority on this issue.

This is just some feedback for the mods. Move it to the complaint department if you would rather it lives there, but I thought it was more relevant to RSP.
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Jonny Lawless
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What's the new policy?
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Clay
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Nothing really changed. We always had the same level of nastiness, all that has changed is the words people are using to express it (a move to more conventional methods of displaying negative attitudes from the previous morass of "subtle" attacks). Given a choice between the two, I'll always take the one which permits greater posting freedom.
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Ed Bradley
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The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed.


I disagree vehemently.
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lotus dweller
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The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed. We always had the same level of nastiness, all that has changed is the words people are using to express it (a move to more conventional methods of displaying negative attitudes from the previous morass of "subtle" attacks). Given a choice between the two, I'll always take the one which permits greater posting freedom.
And you're able to use that freedom such that RSP is a more vibrant and creative place.
Some people would use more freedom to turn this place into a Youtube toilet dump. And that would be it for some of the posters here.

Do you think you'd be better off with that?
 
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Italian Seismologist
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i welcome any change that reduces moderation. but then i have rather extreme views on free speech, to a degree where even most of my friends disagree with me.

harassment needs to be looked at though, as well as spamming, i think those two things need moderation to keep any forum running.
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Boaty McBoatface
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The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed. We always had the same level of nastiness, all that has changed is the words people are using to express it (a move to more conventional methods of displaying negative attitudes from the previous morass of "subtle" attacks). Given a choice between the two, I'll always take the one which permits greater posting freedom.
IN my case there as a change, I started to be nasty back.
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Clay
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Fwing wrote:
The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed.


I disagree vehemently.


Alright, what do you think changed?

Pinook wrote:
The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed. We always had the same level of nastiness, all that has changed is the words people are using to express it (a move to more conventional methods of displaying negative attitudes from the previous morass of "subtle" attacks). Given a choice between the two, I'll always take the one which permits greater posting freedom.
And you're able to use that freedom such that RSP is a more vibrant and creative place.
Some people would use more freedom to turn this place into a Youtube toilet dump. And that would be it for some of the posters here.

Do you think you'd be better off with that?


Yes. The people that wish to get aggressive would be, and indeed were, just as aggressive, the only thing that has changed is that they can now use more traditionally explicit methods of demonstrating this attitude rather than beating around the bush. The literal content of posts has changed but the intended meaning has not, so it really isn't much of a change. Given that, this is obviously preferable to me than the previous situation where someone would arbitrarily put people in time out based on how traditionally explicit their meaning was, even if the meaning would otherwise be the same. That was frankly a stupid system prone to bias and selective interpretation. It's much better now that the playing field is even for those that need a field at all. Those of us that prefer to sit under the trees can still do that undisturbed... or something.
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Ed Bradley
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chaendlmaier wrote:
Fwing wrote:
The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed.

I disagree vehemently.

Yeah, nowadays people tend to quote out of context more.


Yeah taking the opening sentence of a statement is really robbing it of context.
Shut your hole.
 
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Italian Seismologist
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Fwing wrote:
chaendlmaier wrote:
Fwing wrote:
The Message wrote:
Nothing really changed.

I disagree vehemently.

Yeah, nowadays people tend to quote out of context more.


Yeah taking the opening sentence of a statement is really robbing it of context.
Shut your hole.


yeah the open robbing of your hole!!
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Billy the Hut
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Personally, I don't mind the rough nature of RSP too much (with the exception of extreme situations such as the one Curt mentioned). I kind of expect it there. There are some in RSP who have and will be abusive and take every disagreement with their opinion personally (C'est la vie).

What annoys me more are a few individuals who I've notice tend to mock posters in other threads. If someone posts a question in a "rules" section under a game, don't mock them for not understanding the rules. If someone posts a contribution (such as a microbadge) that may need some work, make a suggestion, don't mock them. That kind of bull just make this nice site less nice. I tried to make the point in the microbadge review thread without singling out the offending person for harassment, but the point was basically dismissed & mocked. A shame really.
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Josh
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I am torn on the issue. While I think some statements are... less than helpful, I managed to warrant a warning in a normal game thread for calling someone out. I described a post as fanboy butthurt (and it was.). I also explained why it was in detailed points rather than leaving that as a blanket statement without justification. People wahwahed(shocking I know ina forum devoted to the game) and I was asked politely to remove the post. I edited out the offending line instead because the rest of the post was still just as valid.

So I guess I ascribe to the theory that unmitigated spew is pointless, a little rough language used in support of a valid and detailed argument can be warranted. (Call me a moron if you want, but tell me why in specific terms you feel this way, not just because you disagree on opinions)

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David desJardins
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Shadrach wrote:
So I guess I ascribe to the theory that unmitigated spew is pointless, a little rough language used in support of a valid and detailed argument can be warranted. (Call me a moron if you want, but tell me why in specific terms you feel this way, not just because you disagree on opinions)


I'd like you to explain why you couldn't express the same point of view without profanity and obscenity. If you can accomplish exactly the same thing either way, then I think it's better to have a forum for board game discussion that everyone can participate in, rather than a forum that some people will avoid because of your offensive language. One of the goals of BGG is to provide a single place for all kinds of information about these games to be shared. You undermine that if you insist on behaving in ways that are going to go over the bar where some people will no longer feel comfortable in those forums. I would be more persuaded if you explained how you simply couldn't make your point any other way.
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David desJardins
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The main problem with past moderation in RSP wasn't "too much" or "too little" but just that it was poorly done. It's a hard job and maybe the people we had weren't up to the task. I don't know if the current arrangement is better or worse. Maybe a little better. What I would like, though, is to go back to having more moderation, but just to have it better executed (i.e., to pay more attention to the actual forum rules that the moderators are supposed to be enforcing).
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Jorge Montero
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When the rules were enforced, and enforced evenly, although at a far higher tolerance threshold than I'd prefer, we saw plenty of people complain about uneven moderation, if just because the people that couldn't pay attention to the moderation guidelines were mostly from the same political leaning.

I now believe most moderation guidelines are, in some way, discriminatory, precisely because the skills to be polite in political conversation just aren't evenly distributed across the political spectrum. This is not so different from how certain types of standardized tests have been considered to be part of racial profiling when used for, say, determining advancement for policemen and firemen.

So really, we are either stuck with low moderation, or with a lot of bannings. Everyone gets to have a preference, but as far as his goes, only Matthew's opinion matters.
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David desJardins
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hibikir wrote:
When the rules were enforced, and enforced evenly, although at a far higher tolerance threshold than I'd prefer, we saw plenty of people complain about uneven moderation, if just because the people that couldn't pay attention to the moderation guidelines were mostly from the same political leaning.


I don't think that's the main reason. It's because of excessive secrecy. If moderation were public, then (1) the standard of moderation would be much higher, and (2) people would be much more respectful of it because they would actually see how it's being applied. When it's so secretive, it inevitably comes to seem arbitrary, whether it is or not.
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Josh
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
So I guess I ascribe to the theory that unmitigated spew is pointless, a little rough language used in support of a valid and detailed argument can be warranted. (Call me a moron if you want, but tell me why in specific terms you feel this way, not just because you disagree on opinions)


I'd like you to explain why you couldn't express the same point of view without profanity and obscenity. If you can accomplish exactly the same thing either way, then I think it's better to have a forum for board game discussion that everyone can participate in, rather than a forum that some people will avoid because of your offensive language. One of the goals of BGG is to provide a single place for all kinds of information about these games to be shared. You undermine that if you insist on behaving in ways that are going to go over the bar where some people will no longer feel comfortable in those forums. I would be more persuaded if you explained how you simply couldn't make your point any other way.


I feel, and this is a personal opinion, that sometimes a degree of invective is useful to illustrate a level of extremis in a situation. There are times when treating a position with perfect politeness grants it a level of legitimacy it does not otherwise deserve. To make an imperfect but close analogy I would compare it to the media tendency to dress and present unqualified guests with an extreme position(left or right) exactly the same as highly qualified experts presenting a reasoned opinion.
It creates a sense in the viewer that both positions are equally valid, just different.

I hope that helps explain my feelings, ask any more specifics if you like.
 
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David desJardins
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Shadrach wrote:
I feel, and this is a personal opinion, that sometimes a degree of invective is useful to illustrate a level of extremis in a situation. There are times when treating a position with perfect politeness grants it a level of legitimacy it does not otherwise deserve.


Well, there's two different things here. One is profanity and the other is respect. I've got to disagree with you on both of these points. I do have a tendency to use some amount of profanity myself, as a simple intensifier, but I think "fanboy butthurt" is way beyond acceptable in a general forum that's expected to serve a broad community. And I also think that expressing contempt or disgust for someone's position is never appropriate, it specifically is barred by the forum rules here, and that's as it should be. If you really find someone's opinion about a boardgame so "illegitimate" that you can't respond to it without personal attacks on the character of the speaker, probably the forums would be better served by omitting your response entirely.
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Josh
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I feel, and this is a personal opinion, that sometimes a degree of invective is useful to illustrate a level of extremis in a situation. There are times when treating a position with perfect politeness grants it a level of legitimacy it does not otherwise deserve.


Well, there's two different things here. One is profanity and the other is respect. I've got to disagree with you on both of these points. I do have a tendency to use some amount of profanity myself, as a simple intensifier, but I think "fanboy butthurt" is way beyond acceptable in a general forum that's expected to serve a broad community. And I also think that expressing contempt or disgust for someone's position is never appropriate, it specifically is barred by the forum rules here, and that's as it should be. If you really find someone's opinion about a boardgame so "illegitimate" that you can't respond to it without personal attacks on the character of the speaker, probably the forums would be better served by omitting your response entirely.


Wait a minute, you were referring to the phrase 'fanboy butthurt'? I don't even think that comes up to the level of any kind of personal attack. 'Butthurt' while a colloquialism has an accepted definition, same with fanboy. It applied and I used it. I had made a reasoned argument about a game not being thematic, while not trashing the game in its entirety. The respondent first replied evenly, asking me to clarify. I thanked him for being polite, and did. His next post was night-and-day from his first.

He started in about me just being wrong(no backup) not understanding the game and being a troll. (Keep in mind I had not called the game a bad one, just expressed the opinion I did not feel it was thematic. I believed the mechanics worked well as a game, but undermined the theme in service to the game balance/engine). That is, if you have not encountered such before, pretty much a textbook example of fanboy butthurt. An out of proportion emotive reaction to a perceived slight against something you are extremely fond of. Also keep in mind I continued the post with further illustration of my points on the theme of the game, to counter the notion that my position was itself simply emotive or' trolling'
 
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Shadrach your approach is tragically flawed, no matter the status of "fanboy butthurt".

This forum must have at least 10 geeks on it, whose sense of humour is so warped that they'd be deeply appreciative of knowing where a biased unfair sordidly unhygienic "review" of a game would evoke tears and hatred.

They needed you. And you didn't come through.

Instead you wasted the opportunity, collapsing the possibility of wild Cthulhuian revelry, fooling yourself into thinking that a two word put-down would be satisfactory.

Somewhere out there is a fanboy who doesn't hate RSPers.

And it's all your fault.
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Shadrach wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I feel, and this is a personal opinion, that sometimes a degree of invective is useful to illustrate a level of extremis in a situation. There are times when treating a position with perfect politeness grants it a level of legitimacy it does not otherwise deserve.


Well, there's two different things here. One is profanity and the other is respect. I've got to disagree with you on both of these points. I do have a tendency to use some amount of profanity myself, as a simple intensifier, but I think "fanboy butthurt" is way beyond acceptable in a general forum that's expected to serve a broad community. And I also think that expressing contempt or disgust for someone's position is never appropriate, it specifically is barred by the forum rules here, and that's as it should be. If you really find someone's opinion about a boardgame so "illegitimate" that you can't respond to it without personal attacks on the character of the speaker, probably the forums would be better served by omitting your response entirely.


Wait a minute, you were referring to the phrase 'fanboy butthurt'? I don't even think that comes up to the level of any kind of personal attack. 'Butthurt' while a colloquialism has an accepted definition, same with fanboy. It applied and I used it. I had made a reasoned argument about a game not being thematic, while not trashing the game in its entirety. The respondent first replied evenly, asking me to clarify. I thanked him for being polite, and did. His next post was night-and-day from his first.

He started in about me just being wrong(no backup) not understanding the game and being a troll. (Keep in mind I had not called the game a bad one, just expressed the opinion I did not feel it was thematic. I believed the mechanics worked well as a game, but undermined the theme in service to the game balance/engine). That is, if you have not encountered such before, pretty much a textbook example of fanboy butthurt. An out of proportion emotive reaction to a perceived slight against something you are extremely fond of. Also keep in mind I continued the post with further illustration of my points on the theme of the game, to counter the notion that my position was itself simply emotive or' trolling'


What's the game?
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Pinook: I will admit it; whatever you were trying to say went over my head. I can feel the sarcasm, but the analogies lost me. If you want me to get the point please rephrase?

Message: Eclipse. I probably should have known better than to dissent, but I figured that by avoiding trashing the game entire(as some have) I might get someone to meet halfway and a discussion abt theme vs game play might ultimately ensue. It never got that far. I used T.I.3 as a counter example a few times, but was very sure to point out T.I.3 isn't perfect(it isn't) because I didn't want to be branded a T.I. fanboy, as those arguments inveritably lead no where.
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Shadrach wrote:
Pinook: I will admit it; whatever you were trying to say went over my head. I can feel the sarcasm, but the analogies lost me. If you want me to get the point please rephrase?

Message: Eclipse. I probably should have known better than to dissent, but I figured that by avoiding trashing the game entire(as some have) I might get someone to meet halfway and a discussion abt theme vs game play might ultimately ensue. It never got that far. I used T.I.3 as a counter example a few times, but was very sure to point out T.I.3 isn't perfect(it isn't) because I didn't want to be branded a T.I. fanboy, as those arguments inveritably lead no where.


Oh, yeah, that was a strategic blunder. You don't insult the hotness, it's like invading Russia.

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Shadrach wrote:


Message: Eclipse. I probably should have known better than to dissent, but I figured that by avoiding trashing the game entire(as some have) I might get someone to meet halfway and a discussion abt theme vs game play might ultimately ensue. It never got that far. I used T.I.3 as a counter example a few times, but was very sure to point out T.I.3 isn't perfect(it isn't) because I didn't want to be branded a T.I. fanboy, as those arguments inveritably lead no where.


Be happy that all you got called out for was "fanboy butthurt," which is the sort of phrase that rubs easily 90% of all the Caspar Milquetoast board gamers at BGG exactly the wrong way. Were I in charge of moderation, you'd have been banned for life due to "inveritably."
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The Message wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Pinook: I will admit it; whatever you were trying to say went over my head. I can feel the sarcasm, but the analogies lost me. If you want me to get the point please rephrase?

Message: Eclipse. I probably should have known better than to dissent, but I figured that by avoiding trashing the game entire(as some have) I might get someone to meet halfway and a discussion abt theme vs game play might ultimately ensue. It never got that far. I used T.I.3 as a counter example a few times, but was very sure to point out T.I.3 isn't perfect(it isn't) because I didn't want to be branded a T.I. fanboy, as those arguments inveritably lead no where.


Oh, yeah, that was a strategic blunder. You don't insult the hotness, it's like invading Russia.



I just think that frank discussion is helpful in game design and in helping people who may plunk down $70-100 on something make an informed opinion. I know I have things I like and dislike, but I try to approach it realizing how much is me and how much the game. I even did a couple reviews for games centered around this theme called 'will it play.' ( will do more when I have more time/drive). The notion being a review that score a game or calls it good or bad is ultimately less useful than a review that highlights what youwill and won't find in a game, so that people can pick up on'hey that is what I like!' Or not.
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