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Subject: The plight of the vegan rss

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Zé Mário
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And it costs 9$!

Yeah, I'm no vegan or vegetarian, but there's no way I'ld buy something like this.
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Adrian Hague
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Just to clarify: is it a live scorpion?
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Can scorpions feel anything?
 
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Billy the Hut
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I can't much see the point of this or why anyone would want to buy one. However I can't say it offends me to the degree it does some.

Years ago I had a house mate who was vegan. She tended to look down her nose at folks who were not. That 2nd part is what was annoying. Oddly enough she insisted on having this redwood adirondack chair in the back yard. She couldn't abide the killing of an animal for food, but she'd no issue with killing a tree that lived hundreds of years just to park her butt. I can't really understand it.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Why?
 
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Jasper
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Mondainai wrote:
Can scorpions feel anything?
What difference does it make when you are (presumably) killing it instantly?
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DK Kemler
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If that's got your panties in a bunch what about Really Wild Bug Eating Party?

 
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Isaac Citrom
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I'm the opposite of a vegan and view animals as secondary to human beings in all respects.

This is an unuseful, trivial and unnecessary use of animal life.
.
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The Steak Fairy
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chaendlmaier wrote:


This is such an arbitrary act of cruelty I'm going to cry in my pillow for the rest of the day.


Try not to drown the bedbugs, okay?
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Paul Springer
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I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with Vegans or their plights? Or are you just trying to pick a fight by putting the word "Vegan" in a thread about trivialized animal death?
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Xander Fulton
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UvulaBob wrote:
I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with Vegans or their plights? Or are you just trying to pick a fight by putting the word "Vegan" in a thread about trivialized animal death?


"Insects" are "animals"?

If you are going to expand the definition of 'animal' to include 'everything with a cellular structure that lacks a cell wall', I've got some bad news for the vegans about what their immune system does all day, every day...
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Damian
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XanderF wrote:
"Insects" are "animals"?

Yes. Although scorpions are not insects, they are arachnids (which are also animals).

Quote:
If you are going to expand the definition of 'animal' to include 'everything with a cellular structure that lacks a cell wall', I've got some bad news for the vegans about what their immune system does all day, every day...

Animals are all multicellular eukaryotes, by definition. Colloquially the term is usually used more restrictively, but that doesn't make the actual definition any more restrictive.
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Wally Jones
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If you truly feel sorry for a stupid scorpion, then please spend some time rolling around in my front paddock.

After about 10 stings, you won't feel sorry for them anymore.
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Clay
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DCAnderson wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
Can scorpions feel anything?


There's a good chance that they don't, but this is a pretty ballsy example of just not giving a shit.


That's news to me, why wouldn't they? No nervous system or something bizarre? I always try to kill them efficiently when it comes up but that doesn't always go smoothly and they certainly don't seem happy with the process, an animal spasming erratically after taking damage seems like something negative we can all relate to.
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Paul Springer
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chaendlmaier wrote:

I don't know if this is a joke, but if it is not, then I would like to explain to you that the plight of the vegan is that they can't even play with scorpion yo-yos.


That's like saying the plight of the pacifist is that he'll never get to kill someone. Why would a vegan want to play with a scorpion yo-yo?
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Seth Brown
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There have been a number of articles about quasi-sentient plantlife; at least animals have a chance to escape or defend themselves.

Anyway, I've eaten a number of insects, and if nothing else it makes more sense than eating cows, at least from a sustainability perspective. But I'm among the many people who will kill a bug flying around my head without a second thought, and I don't feel bad about it. If you choose not to kill bugs, that's cool too.
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Leo Zappa
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I think you guys kinda missed Curt's point. When he said he's a Vegan and that this scorpion yo-yo was sad, you failed to realize that Curt is a Vegan, as in from the Vega star system:



...and that Vega's habitable planet is populated by a civilization of intelligent insects.



So, obviously, from his point of view, this is not only sad, but represents a sort of sadistic genocidial butchery. Seen in this light, his displeasure is much more understandable.

I am correct, Curt, am I not?
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Mac Mcleod
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Sorry man.

I agree that it's pretty pointless and cruel.
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Samantha RD
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DCAnderson wrote:


Scientific classification for Scorpions:

Quote:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Arthropoda
Subphylum: Chelicerata
Class: Arachnida


Scientific classification for Insects:

Quote:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Arthropoda
Subphylum: Hexapoda
Class: Insecta


Actually, you got your taxonomic comparison a bit mixed up there - should be class to class.

And back on topic - distasteful as it is to make scorpion yoyo's, they most likely kill them in alcohol before sticking them in 'molten plastic.'
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Zé Mário
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brilk wrote:
I get why you find this annoying, but do you not also look down on others you feel are ethically inferior? Think of how you view pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and others who you have rather severe ethical disagreements with. I'd be surprised if you don't see them in a similar negative way.


If you reckon these are comparable, please, feel free to look down on me.
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Rob
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DCAnderson wrote:
This was probably more traumatic than finding out Santa Claus isn't real and where exactly babies come from combined.


Dude, spoilers!
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Osirus wrote:
There have been a number of articles about quasi-sentient plantlife;


I think you meant to post this in the legalized pot thread.
 
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Agent J
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DCAnderson wrote:
When I was a little kid I had a scorpion in a paperweight. When I finally put two and two together and realized how this scorpion must have ended up sealed in Lucite, I was forever weirded out by that thing. This was probably more traumatic than finding out Santa Claus isn't real and where exactly babies come from combined.


I would be freaked out by the possibility of it somehow become unsealed and stinging me. Never mind the impossibility.
 
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brilk wrote:
Asur wrote:
If you reckon these are comparable, please, feel free to look down on me.


Are people only allowed to consider things horrific if you also consider them horrific? If not, what's your point? "I don't value things the same way you do" is a fairly worthless statement, especially when you're in the 99%-plus that aren't ethical vegans. Of course you don't share a value system with me.

If it's hideously evil to do something to humans, is it really that hard to fathom why some people would also find it hideously evil to do that exact same thing to other intelligent beings? I consider the systematic slaughter of over 50 billion intelligent beings each year for pleasure to be just a tad awful, and that's only scratching the surface of the terrible things humans do to non-humans.

Here's a quick rundown so that you can see my side:

Murdering a human for his shoes - bad
Murdering a non-human to make shoes - also bad

Murdering a human to eat him - bad
Murdering a non-human to eat him - also bad

Instead of making a trite and worthless comment, could you instead explain why I shouldn't consider it terrible to kill another intelligent being for fun, whether that fun be eating its flesh, wearing its skin, or even putting it in a yo-yo?

I've heard plenty of people make arguments over the course of my life as to why it's okay to do terrible things to others if they're different enough. I didn't consider that an intelligent argument when it was applied to minorities, foreigners, or people outside a religion. I still don't consider it an intelligent argument when it's applied to non-humans. For some reason, though, versions of the "different enough" argument are all I ever hear when it comes to veganism.

If you do feel up to offering an argument as to why it's okay to do X to non-humans, but not okay to do X to humans, please avoid that trap. See if the same argument would hold up if you applied it to other groups of humans.

"Cows are dumb we can eat them." Is this reasonable? Is it okay for the more intelligent humans to breed, slaughter, consume, and wear the skin of the less intelligent humans? Not so much.

"They look different." "We can't breed with them." etc.

Statements like these are true for many humans. Unless you're suggesting that it's okay to do the same things humans do to cows to these humans, please make different points. I honestly am interested in hearing good arguments that are pro-terrible-things. I've read a tremendous amount on this subject, but solid arguments in favor of killing for pleasure are a bit hard to find.


Okay, so I am not trying to get in a big pissing contest with you here, but here is what I have not understood about the vegan point of view.

Do vegans get upset or think it is morally wrong when...

the lion eats the antelope
the crocodile eats the water buffalo
the bear eats the deer
the wolf eats the elk
the hawk eats the prairie dog
the shark eats the sea lion
the whale eats the plankton
the cat eats the mouse

I am guessing that no they don't but perhaps I am wrong

Why is it okay for every single predatory animal on the planet to eat the animals that are lower on the food chain than them but when the #1 predatory animal on the planet does, it is morally wrong and reprehensible?

Humans are at the top of the food chain. Period end of story. So unless the vegan spends their days railing against every other predatory animal on the planet killing and eating the other animals, the vegan point of view seems like nothing more than a bunch of self righteous indignation.

So there is the most intelligent argument I can make, using the simple, basic laws of nature about why I think the vegan point of view is ridiculous.

My question to you is, can you intelligently disprove anything I have to say about the simple facts of the natural food chain?

edit - for the record, I want to say that I do not look down on vegans for their point of view but I did just have a discussion with a vegan the other day that believes humans who eat animals are flat out morally corrupt people and that is what I have a problem with.
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Ogsponge wrote:
Why is it okay for every single predatory animal on the planet to eat the animals that are lower on the food chain than them but when the #1 predatory animal on the planet does, it is morally wrong reprehensible?


Ducks procreate through gang rape. When a wolf kills a rival, it will kill that rival's cubs before starting it's own pack. In some species, cannibalism of siblings is a common way of life.

We all hold animals to different moral standards than ourselves, for I think very obvious reasons. Even if we hold them to the exact same standards, their situation is entirely different. I don't need to kill to live, that's not true of most animals, even if they were able to make that choice.

The laws of nature are savage completion, blood and death. The nice thing about being a human is that we can avoid the laws of nature to a great extent.

Arguing we should eat meat because of the laws of nature is like arguing we shouldn't have planes because of the laws of gravity.
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