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Spartacus: A Game of Blood & Treachery» Forums » Rules

Subject: Allowed to combine Ax with Javelin? rss

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Edward B.
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Ruleswise, I believe it is legal. Doesn't make much sense to me, though, in the setting.

You can exhaust the ax to cause an auto wound on an attack. So you can throw a javelin and then exhaust the ax to cause an extra wound?
 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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Without the rules in front of me, I'm saying no, the reason is that the Ax says you can add an auto-wound after the attack dice have been settled. The javelin is thrown and the speed dice are used to decide the outcome of wounds not the attack dice.

Good luck & have fun
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Syn Egg
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Even if the designers rule that you can combine them my group is going to stick with no because that is just stupid.
 
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Patricia Piolon
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You can only use one weapon (one card of each type), right? So this wouldn't fly.
 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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The Javelin is a Special and the Ax is a Weapon so you could take them both into the Arena
 
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Patricia Piolon
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Ah! Should have checked that.
 
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John Van Wagoner
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manfromtherock wrote:
The Javelin is a Special and the Ax is a Weapon so you could take them both into the Arena
while it seems to go against the intent of the rules, if they made the javelin a "special", then following the rules it seems like it would be legal for sure...
 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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It would be legal to take both into the Arena, but you couldn't use the Ax to auto wound after throwing your Javelin.

If I remember correctly you could;

1 - Throw your Javelin

2 - Move to other Gladiator

3 - Attack Gladiator and inflict an Auto-Wound with your Ax

 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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manfromtherock wrote:
It would be legal to take both into the Arena, but you couldn't use the Ax to auto wound after throwing your Javelin.

If I remember correctly you could;

1 - Throw your Javelin

2 - Move to other Gladiator

3 - Attack Gladiator and inflict an Auto-Wound with your Ax



Is throwing the javelin not instead of an attack? What exactly is the text on the card?
 
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Plei Forejoy
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manfromtherock wrote:
It would be legal to take both into the Arena, but you couldn't use the Ax to auto wound after throwing your Javelin.

If I remember correctly you could;

1 - Throw your Javelin

2 - Move to other Gladiator

3 - Attack Gladiator and inflict an Auto-Wound with your Ax

You cannot do that. The "Speed Attack is made instead of your normal Attack, not in addition to it" (p. 18, Speed Attacks, Rulebook).

As for whether the Ax can be used in conjunction with the Javelin, I would say yes it can (until an official ruling). There is no rule that excludes this from happening. The words on the Ax say "after resolving attack", which does not exclude a Javelin attack per the Speed Attack rule above. The rules spell no limit on the number of equipment cards you can exhaust.

Thematically, one can say the equipped gladiator threw the javelin and pierced the opponent. While his opponent is stunned by the attack, he then hurls the ax, burying the ax head deep into the poor guy's body.
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Peter Kraft
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But the text on the axe is for when the axe is used and in this case its not used sice the javilin was thrown.
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Enies wrote:
But the text on the axe is for when the axe is used and in this case its not used sice the javilin was thrown.
The text on the Ax card says "after resolving attack"; it does not say what attack, nor does it say that it must be with an Ax. See also p. 17, Exhausting a Card, Rulebook, "This will often be preceded by when the Special Ability may be used." Also p. 18, Equipment Abilities, "Equipment Cards represent money and training invested by the Houses to prepare their Gladiators for the Arena rather than representing a single sword or helmet."

I would be glad for GF9 to clarify, but the rules so far convince me that such a combo is valid.
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Peter Kraft
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Jebbie wrote:
Enies wrote:
But the text on the axe is for when the axe is used and in this case its not used sice the javilin was thrown.
The text on the Ax card says "after resolving attack"; it does not say what attack, nor does it say that it must be with an Ax. See also p. 17, Exhausting a Card, Rulebook, "This will often be preceded by when the Special Ability may be used." Also p. 18, Equipment Abilities, "Equipment Cards represent money and training invested by the Houses to prepare their Gladiators for the Arena rather than representing a single sword or helmet."

I would be glad for GF9 to clarify, but the rules so far convince me that such a combo is valid.


I think its kinda self explaining that the text that say "after resolving attack" is if you use the axe itself not if you posses it. And since you throw your javilin the axe is not used in this attack and hence the text in the axe is not valid for this attack.
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Edward B.
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It's really not self-explaining, though. I'm not a guy who needs everything spelled out, but the rules really don't say anything that would prohibit using the ax with the javelin - even though, like I said, I don't think it makes much sense.

The player who used the combo used the argument that he threw the ax as part of their attack with the javelin.

It doesn't sound like there is any information I missed in the rules, so until I hear otherwise, I am inclined to allow this usage. Ima - good catch on the definition of equipment. I missed that - that equipment doesn't represent an actual piece of equipment but training, etc. That pushes me even more towards allowing the javelin/ax combo.
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It may not say so specifically but I would bet my house that the intent was that you have to use the Ax or the Javelin in your turn, not both.

Some of the equipment combos seem badly thought out in general. I'm thinking of adding my own house rules along the following lines.

Shield + Helmet IS allowed, but you can't use both in the same turn.
Armour + Net is NOT allowed (the Retiarius gladiator class that used the net wore very little armour and no helmet).

I also wish they'd included more types of equipment. Hopefully future expansions will add them. Here are my ideas:

Current "Sword" weapon card becomes "Gladius"

New weapon card: "Sica"

This curved sword favoured by the Thraex (Thracian) class of gladiator was used like a sickle (point downwards) rather than like a scimitar or sabre (point upwards). Its shape made it very effective against gladiators equipped with the large "scutum" shield, and its keen cutting edge could cause severe injuries. These aspects would have to be factored into its special ability. [EDIT] Perhaps 1 extra Wound if a double is rolled when at least one Wound is scored, which would increase its chance of causing an Injury or Decapitation once the opposing gladiator was reduced to 3 dice.

Current "Shield" armour card becomes "Scutum"

New armour card: "Parmula"

A small, square shield used by the Thraex class of gladiator. It's small size made it effective at parrying, and being lighter than the larger scutum shield, gave the gladiator greater mobility. I'm not sure what special ability it would have. I would actually penalise the speed of gladiators with the scutum, perhaps having their movement rate reduced to 1 less hex than their number of SPD dice (to a minimum of 1). [EDIT] Alternatively, +1 SPD die could be its special ability, making it a good option for Slaves as it would effectively give them 1 more hit point.

It would have been nice if the SPD of a gladiator was affected by Armour in some way in the game as written. The Romans were very enthusiastic about pitting "Heavy" gladiators against "Lights" as it made for a more interesting match. Again, hopefully something to include as "Optional" rules in a future expansion.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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All those cards are just abilities that you can use in the actual dice combat (and in the case of the javelin and axe they are one-shot uses anyway) so if you want to use multiple in one combat round I can't see any problem or anything in the rules saying you can't.

PS As there are very few weapons in the market deck that is another indication that the cards are more special abilities to use in the dice fight rather than weapons in traditional minis/combat type games.
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Peter Kraft
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The sword is gladius training so they can easy add a sica training aswell.
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Yes, this is a valid combination.
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Edward B.
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Thanks for the clarification!
 
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Syn Egg
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BeerAndBoard wrote:
All those cards are just abilities that you can use in the actual dice combat (and in the case of the javelin and axe they are one-shot uses anyway) so if you want to use multiple in one combat round I can't see any problem or anything in the rules saying you can't.


It makes a difference because of the importance of first strike. Javelin users will almost always have the first strike and if you can deal 1 more guaranteed point of damage with the axe before the enemy can retaliate then you have a huge advantage.

If the opponent removes a speed die because of the axe/javelin combo then in the next turn you will be more likely to strike first or maybe they can no longer reach you.

If they remove an attack die then even if they win first strike next turn they will do less damage.

If they remove defense it helps a little bit.

But since GF9 already said yes this is now moot.
 
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NappyPlayer wrote:
It may not say so specifically but I would bet my house that the intent was that you have to use the Ax or the Javelin in your turn, not both.


Damn, just lost my house!

I was pretty sure GF9 would rule the other way but I think they are trying to keep things simple rather than having to make rules exceptions here and there. Thematically I have no idea how Ax helps with a Javelin hit but if GF9 say it does then it does.
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Dangerous Partners
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Synegg wrote:
BeerAndBoard wrote:
All those cards are just abilities that you can use in the actual dice combat (and in the case of the javelin and axe they are one-shot uses anyway) so if you want to use multiple in one combat round I can't see any problem or anything in the rules saying you can't.


It makes a difference because of the importance of first strike. Javelin users will almost always have the first strike and if you can deal 1 more guaranteed point of damage with the axe before the enemy can retaliate then you have a huge advantage.

If the opponent removes a speed die because of the axe/javelin combo then in the next turn you will be more likely to strike first or maybe they can no longer reach you.

If they remove an attack die then even if they win first strike next turn they will do less damage.

If they remove defense it helps a little bit.

But since GF9 already said yes this is now moot.

Well just DON'T let a Dominus buy both of them then - if you do either you're a bit dopey or he had too much gold which means he has been playing the game well. And remember he would need a decent gladiator to get the most out of using both so if you have let him buy one of those as well then he deserves to win.

But you guys have to stop treating this game as a miniatures fight - it's a 'take that' card game with some simple dice combat ... overall the game may be a bit too simple for our group, especially when it can drag a bit.
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Syn Egg
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Good point. I guess my main problems with allowing the axe/javelin combo were:

1) thematically and logically it sounds retarded, as many others have said.

2) the javelin is strong enough as it is, this makes it even more so. I think there was a thread dedicated to pointing out how strong it is. But like you say it's a simple case of adapting play style to the new changes.

While I agree with you that the arena is just 1 part of the overall game, it is by no means 'simple dice combat'. Sure compared to other miniatures dice fighting games the arena rules are definitely simpler, but there are some subtle moves that you can do to put your gladiator in a better position and I don't mean constantly running away. These small advantages will be even more important in the expansion.
 
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Edward B.
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Synegg wrote:
Good point. I guess my main problems with allowing the axe/javelin combo were:

1) thematically and logically it sounds retarded, as many others have said.

2) the javelin is strong enough as it is, this makes it even more so. I think there was a thread dedicated to pointing out how strong it is. But like you say it's a simple case of adapting play style to the new changes.

While I agree with you that the arena is just 1 part of the overall game, it is by no means 'simple dice combat'. Sure compared to other miniatures dice fighting games the arena rules are definitely simpler, but there are some subtle moves that you can do to put your gladiator in a better position and I don't mean constantly running away. These small advantages will be even more important in the expansion.


Your first thought was running through my head when this combo occurred, but someone mentioned that rulebook states these cards represent training and not actual equipment. So, on that end, I can understand it.

The javelin did seem pretty strong, but after the game was over we ran a combat of The Shadow of Death with javelin and ax against another gladiator (decent one, but forget who it was) with a sword and the guy with the sword one.

The javelin and ax are good, but they can both only be used once per combat.
 
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Syn Egg
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NeedsNewDice wrote:
Your first thought was running through my head when this combo occurred, but someone mentioned that rulebook states these cards represent training and not actual equipment. So, on that end, I can understand it.

The javelin did seem pretty strong, but after the game was over we ran a combat of The Shadow of Death with javelin and ax against another gladiator (decent one, but forget who it was) with a sword and the guy with the sword one.

The javelin and ax are good, but they can both only be used once per combat.


So you train with an axe and you can hack people with it. Then you train with a javelin as well and suddenly you can throw an axe like a tomahawk? Still doesn't make a great deal of sense but whatever.

Javelin on shadow of death is obviously a bad combo. I don't really understand why you ran that experiment. I explained in another thread somewhere that shadow has virtually no chance vs 4 speed gladiators and may have a hard time vs 3 speeders unless he gets net and/or trident and/or really lucky speed rolls.
 
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