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Reds! The Russian Civil War 1918-1921» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Go for the Gold? rss

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Mike Willner
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I've played Reds! three times face to face so far, both as the Reds and as the Whites. Each time I've seen the Red player grab the People's Gold on turn 1 only to have the inevitable Red counter attack grab it back and destroy or badly maul the precious White units sent on the mission.

I'm starting to wonder if this is a viable first move strategy? It costs several non-replaceable units that could be used for other purposes. Maybe I'm overlooking something but right now, I doubt I'd grab the gold on turn 1 again. What am I missing?
 
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Mark Evans
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I guess I have not considered whether to go for the Gold or not. Good question.
 
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Bill Vargas
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BrooklynMike wrote:
I've played Reds! three times face to face so far, both as the Reds and as the Whites. Each time I've seen the Red player grab the People's Gold on turn 1 only to have the inevitable Red counter attack grab it back and destroy or badly maul the precious White units sent on the mission.

I'm starting to wonder if this is a viable first move strategy? It costs several non-replaceable units that could be used for other purposes. Maybe I'm overlooking something but right now, I doubt I'd grab the gold on turn 1 again. What am I missing?


You mean the White player grabs the gold only to lose it, not Red player.

If White knows what to do, it can get and have a good chance of keeping the gold. If the 5th Army doesn't rally and the Red didn't get an aircraft, river flotilla or armored train the White has better than a 50% chance of keeping the gold and sending it to safety. If I play with the standard rules, meaning the White automatically gets the first chit pull, I always lead with Siberian.

I could show anyone in a full game using Vassal and ACTS. I can usually manage 1-2 moves a day. I can't do a live game.

You are right about Siberian units getting hammered though. I've played about 25 times over the years and have seen 1 game go the distance, as someone concedes at some point. The White won maybe 5 games but none where they didn't get the gold. You have to risk the units for the gold because I don't think the White will win without it.

We are also not that far from one another. I see you are from Metropolitan Wargamers. I'm a member of Jersey Association of Gamers (JAG). I live in NJ near the George Washington Bridge. Depending where you guys are in Brooklyn, taking public transportation I could get there in 1.5 hrs. Maybe someone there could reciprocate with a visit to JAG.

It could be a cross-cultural thing.
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Mike Willner
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Bill,
First of all, I'd love to see more interchange between Metro Wargamers of NY and Jersey Gamers. My direct email is mbwmwg@gmail.com ... let's get something arranged.

Next, yes, I meant the Whites. I set the game up and studied the rivers, ZOCs, etc and figured out a White move that prevents the Reds from counterattacking Kazan effectively. Then, assuming the Siberians go first, the Imperial Gold is off to Omsk and as much safety as it will ever have.

Funny, the game me and Joe played at the club ended in Red resignation. He felt the Reds just had too big a row to hoe, especially when we got to turn B. I'm not sure I agree, and it sounds like you would not agree based on your experience.

Anyway, maybe we can get a chance to go through this over an actual game. Let's talk.
 
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Mark Evans
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I don't know who thinks the Whites can win this. I started a poll way back, I encourage you all to vote if you haven't already.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/781986/play-balance-poll
 
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Bill Vargas
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Mike,

I sent you an email. I see what might be the problem. In your last response you wrote:

"I set the game up and studied the rivers, ZOCs, etc and figured out a White move that prevents the Reds from counterattacking Kazan effectively. Then, assuming the Siberians go first, the Imperial Gold is off to Omsk and as much safety as it will ever have."

It seems you have the right idea. However, maybe I'm misreading what you wrote. Once the White captures the gold and hopefully keeps it after the counterattack, it's irrevelant who goes first the following turn. The turn sequence is first initiative. Let's say Red wins initiative on turn 2. Next is random events and then strategic movement. That's when the White can move the gold provided the path is open (no enemy ZOC or partisan).
 
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Mike Willner
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Bill, saw your mail, will reply.

I see what you mean, so I'm pretty sure the Whites can grab and ship off the gold. But hanging in and keeping the two resource cities seems futile. I'm thinking dropping back beyond the Urals and letting the southern armies carry the fighting is the way to go.

Basically, it looks like you hang on until the end of WW1 on turn B and then grab as much of Ukraine as you can. The way I played the Whites in the south was to work on driving a wedge between the Reds and Ukraine so when the land grab started I had better position.

After that (and securing enough resources to prevent Allied Withdrawl) it seems that future-Stalingrad is an empty prize for the Reds, they just drop back and brace for the onslaught.
 
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Bill Vargas
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BrooklynMike wrote:
I see what you mean, so I'm pretty sure the Whites can grab and ship off the gold. But hanging in and keeping the two resource cities seems futile. I'm thinking dropping back beyond the Urals and letting the southern armies carry the fighting is the way to go.

Basically, it looks like you hang on until the end of WW1 on turn B and then grab as much of Ukraine as you can. The way I played the Whites in the south was to work on driving a wedge between the Reds and Ukraine so when the land grab started I had better position.

After that (and securing enough resources to prevent Allied Withdrawl) it seems that future-Stalingrad is an empty prize for the Reds, they just drop back and brace for the onslaught.


You’re just going to have to wait and see when we play each other.

Basically, the AFSR and the Siberians have limited mobility. The Red on the other hand can move troops around and focus on either the east or the south. As the White, I’m defensive on the emphasized Red front and make as much of a push as possible in the front he’s weaker in without exposing the forces to destruction. Once strat turn B comes and the Whites get all those reinforcements, they have to make a push everywhere to get those 3 resources. The longer the withdrawals can be delayed, the better it is for the White. The Ukraine is most likely where those 2 needed resources (along with the gold) will come from.

As for the gold, it is not automatic that the White will keep it, just probable. If Red 5th Army doesn’t rally before east activates and the Red doesn’t get an aircraft or something and the White doesn’t suffer losses taking Kazan and other factors, then the Red player has to roll higher than the White to retake the gold. White wins all ties. So Red getting the gold back is possible, just not likely.
 
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Mike Willner
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Just to cap this: Bill came down to our club ( www.nycwargames.com ) and 'schooled' me in Reds!. Excellent, picked up on many fine points. And, he showed my how the White player can grab the gold, hold it, and come out if it without losing all those irreplaceable Czech units.

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Daniel Kaufman
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I was reading this old post about the go for the gold strategy and can't figure out why not moving in Kappel after the attack limits the counter attack. Any insight?

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/98592/whites-in-reds
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Daniel Kaufman
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I figured it out. The Kappel moves to the south side of Kazan with Komuch.
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