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Eclipse: Rise of the Ancients» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Rho Indi Syndicate initial strategy rss

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Petri Savola
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Syndicate is probably the worst race for turtling, so you need to be active and start aggression against the ancients very early. They start with a pair of interceptors and even without finding any new planets they can build a cruiser on turn two.

Even without any research you can pull off excellent odds against the ancients on turn two, but you can also attack a single ancient on turn one if it's critical (for example Descendants take the sector unless you go there now).

Using just the basic components, you can get the following odds:

Single ancient

2 interceptors: 43 %
2 interceptors (hull): 75 %
2 interceptors (computer): 73 %
2 interceptors (cannon): 71 %

2 interceptors (-), 1 cruiser (-): 93 %
2 interceptors (hull), 1 cruiser (hull): 99,3 %
2 interceptors (computer), 1 cruiser (cannon): 99,3 %
2 interceptors (cannon), 1 cruiser (cannon): 99,2 %

All other upgrade combinations give slightly worse odds, but still 98-99 %.

Double ancients

2 interceptors: 5 %
2 interceptors (hull): 20 %
2 interceptors (computer): 23 %
2 interceptors (cannon): 24 %

So don't attack double ancients on turn 1.

2 interceptors (hull), 1 cruiser (hull): 82 %
2 interceptors (computer), 1 cruiser (cannon): 87 %
2 interceptors (cannon), 1 cruiser (cannon): 86 %

All other upgrade combinations give you worse odds than 85 %. So you get nice odds even against double ancients on turn two. Against single ancient upgrade hull+hull is probably the best, because it minimizes the chances to lose an interceptor, but the pure odds to win favor computer+cannon upgrade against both single and double ancients.

It's good to memorize these optimal initial choices. You can reliably kill even double ancients on turn two by just spending 1 action for building, 1 for upgrading and 1 for moving. All other actions you can use for exploring if needed.
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Petri Savola
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Sometimes you lose an interceptor vs. an ancient or you need to attack a sector more than 1 space from the starting system. In these cases you sometimes end up fighting with 1 interceptor and 1 cruiser.

For completeness, here are the best upgrade configurations for them:

Single Ancient

1 interceptor (hull), 1 cruiser (hull): 94 %
1 interceptor (cannon), 1 cruiser (cannon): 95 %
1 interceptor (computer), 1 cruiser (cannon): 96 %

Again, computer+cannon is the best upgrade configuration.
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Klaus
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Keep in mind that replacing interceptors is quite a bit more costly for the Syndicate than for others. What are the odds for Hull on the interceptors and Cannon on the cruiser?

Another question would be, assuming you have the resources, are you better off building one cruiser or two more interceptors?

What would be the best single research for early combat? Improved Hull, as usual? How does the Sentient Hull compare? It looks like a great fit for interceptors.
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Petri Savola
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Hannibal Rex wrote:
Keep in mind that replacing interceptors is quite a bit more costly for the Syndicate than for others. What are the odds for Hull on the interceptors and Cannon on the cruiser?


Against double ancients, 2 interceptors (hull) and 1 cruiser (cannon) gives 81 % for winning. It's so low probably because ancients are always shooting at the cruiser and if they manage to get it down, the firepower is greatly reduced.

Quote:
Another question would be, assuming you have the resources, are you better off building one cruiser or two more interceptors?


Against single ancient:

4 interceptors (-): 91 %
4 interceptors (computer): 99,1 %
4 interceptors (hull): 99,6 %
4 interceptors (cannon): 98,8 %

Against double ancient:

4 interceptors (-): 48 %
4 interceptors (computer): 86 %
4 interceptors (hull): 86 %
4 interceptors (cannon): 84 %

Hull is slightly better (~0,5 %) than computer againt double ancients and again helps to minimize losses, so it seems to be the way to go there.

Quote:
What would be the best single research for early combat? Improved Hull, as usual? How does the Sentient Hull compare? It looks like a great fit for interceptors.

Sentient hull is awesome against the ancients, because pirate ships don't need extra initiative against ancients. Here are some examples against single ancient:

2 interceptors (sentient hull): 95 %
2 interceptors (plasma cannon + hull): 92%
2 interceptors (improved hull): 90 %
2 interceptors (positron computer): 87 %
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Victor Strogow
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Yes, the sentient hull is extremely good for Rho Indi, especially when matched with plasma cannons. The science cost of both together is only 9-10 points. Petri has already given good numbers for other weapons, here are some others:

Against a single ancient:

- 1 interceptor (sentient hull, plasma cannon): 84%
- 2 interceptors: 99% (95% for winning without losses)
- 1 cruiser (3 x sentient hull, plasma cannon): 99.9%

Against two ancients:
- 1 interceptor (sentient hull, plasma cannon): 45%
- 2 interceptors: 89% (74% for winning without losses)
- 3 interceptors: 99% (86% for winning without losses)
- 1 cruiser (3 x sentient hull, plasma cannon): 97%

Against three ancients (when dealing with a hive):
- 2 interceptors: 65% (43% for winning without losses)
- 3 interceptors: 93% (64% for winning without losses)
- 1 cruiser (3 x sentient hull, plasma cannon): 84%

Againts the GCDS system:
- 3 interceptors: 82% (40% for winning without losses)
- 4 interceptors: 97% (55% for winning without losses)
- 1 cruiser (3 x sentient hull, plasma cannon): 59%
- 2 cruisers: 99% (93% for winning without losses)


Note that these weapon combinations cannot be achieved with ships of other races, even Orion. Orion has weaker external sources on interceptors and cruisers (1 and 2 energy points, respectively) which are good rather for missiles or improved hull designs.
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Klaus
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Quote:
Note that these weapon combinations cannot be achieved with ships of other races, even Orion. Orion has weaker external sources on interceptors and cruisers (1 and 2 energy points, respectively) which are good rather for missiles or improved hull designs.


I don't understand this last point. The Syndicate doesn't get any extra energy. I suppose you mean other races can't get the same chances of success with this combination of upgrades, since they don't have the external Gauss Shield, right?
 
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Victor Strogow
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Hannibal Rex wrote:
I don't understand this last point. The Syndicate doesn't get any extra energy. I suppose you mean other races can't get the same chances of success with this combination of upgrades, since they don't have the external Gauss Shield, right?


Klaus: shortly speaking, yes.
Orion also has gauss shields as an initial technology and also has one external element of their ships. However, their external sources are not sufficient to power a plasma cannon and a drive. Three sentient hulls, one gauss shield and one plasma cannon cannot be placed together on their cruisers. The same is with other races. To be strict, there is one more option for that: an Orion cruiser with an additional muon source, but I think we agree that playing Orion, getting the sentient hull and finding the muon source is rather rare situation...
 
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Feniel Red
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How do you get those numbers? I was trying to find different strategies for Syndicate but I don´t know how to get those percentages.

For example, if I have to fight against ancients the first turn, what´s the best option:
1. place hull (cost: one action)
2. research Improved Hull and place it (cost: 2 actions and 3 science)
3. build one extra interceptor (cost: 1 action and 4 material)
4. build one extra interceptor and place hull (cost: 2 actions and 4 material)

I was thinking that it is possible to do an aggressive first turn with Syndicate, in a similar way to Hegemony, and reach the center in 2nd or 3rd turn.
 
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Petri Savola
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feniel wrote:
How do you get those numbers? I was trying to find different strategies for Syndicate but I don´t know how to get those percentages.

For example, if I have to fight against ancients the first turn, what´s the best option:
1. place hull (cost: one action)
2. research Improved Hull and place it (cost: 2 actions and 3 science)
3. build one extra interceptor (cost: 1 action and 4 material)
4. build one extra interceptor and place hull (cost: 2 actions and 4 material)

I was thinking that it is possible to do an aggressive first turn with Syndicate, in a similar way to Hegemony, and reach the center in 2nd or 3rd turn.

I wrote a combat simulator, which simulates 100000 Eclipse battles with a given setup and gives you % of the battles won. I think there's a combat simulator written by Vanish which can be used with a browser too.

Your questions 1-2 have been answered in this thread already. Building one extra interceptor on turn 1 is very unlikely, because you start with 3 materials. If you find +6 materials, you're better off building 2 new interceptors or a cruiser.
 
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Feniel Red
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Thank you!

Now I'm doing my simulations. Really interesting results.

Improve Hull + 2 Interceptors: 90% of victory.
 
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Paul Paella
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Petri wrote:
feniel wrote:
How do you get those numbers? I was trying to find different strategies for Syndicate but I don´t know how to get those percentages.

For example, if I have to fight against ancients the first turn, what´s the best option:
1. place hull (cost: one action)
2. research Improved Hull and place it (cost: 2 actions and 3 science)
3. build one extra interceptor (cost: 1 action and 4 material)
4. build one extra interceptor and place hull (cost: 2 actions and 4 material)

I was thinking that it is possible to do an aggressive first turn with Syndicate, in a similar way to Hegemony, and reach the center in 2nd or 3rd turn.

I wrote a combat simulator, which simulates 100000 Eclipse battles with a given setup and gives you % of the battles won. I think there's a combat simulator written by Vanish which can be used with a browser too.

Your questions 1-2 have been answered in this thread already. Building one extra interceptor on turn 1 is very unlikely, because you start with 3 materials. If you find +6 materials, you're better off building 2 new interceptors or a cruiser.


Can you post a link to the web simulator? Is your simulator available in the files section or elsewhere? It sounds like a great app to have.
 
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Petri Savola
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Ghorro wrote:
Petri wrote:
feniel wrote:
How do you get those numbers? I was trying to find different strategies for Syndicate but I don´t know how to get those percentages.

For example, if I have to fight against ancients the first turn, what´s the best option:
1. place hull (cost: one action)
2. research Improved Hull and place it (cost: 2 actions and 3 science)
3. build one extra interceptor (cost: 1 action and 4 material)
4. build one extra interceptor and place hull (cost: 2 actions and 4 material)

I was thinking that it is possible to do an aggressive first turn with Syndicate, in a similar way to Hegemony, and reach the center in 2nd or 3rd turn.

I wrote a combat simulator, which simulates 100000 Eclipse battles with a given setup and gives you % of the battles won. I think there's a combat simulator written by Vanish which can be used with a browser too.

Your questions 1-2 have been answered in this thread already. Building one extra interceptor on turn 1 is very unlikely, because you start with 3 materials. If you find +6 materials, you're better off building 2 new interceptors or a cruiser.


Can you post a link to the web simulator? Is your simulator available in the files section or elsewhere? It sounds like a great app to have.

See http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/758508/web-accessible-combat... for the Web simulator.

I could give C++ source code for my simulator, but I don't have a compiler which could create an executable for Windows. Besides, it doesn't calculate very complex battles properly.
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Chris I-B
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I'd be curious to see your code. I've been toying with the idea of writing an Eclipse combat simulator in Python. Between the two of us we might be able to bang something pretty solid out.

Do you use a Monte-Carlo simulator (where you use a random number generator to "roll" the dice), or are you working from stastically average results alone?
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Mine (author of the web accessible one above) is monte-carlo.
 
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nicolas de saint aubain
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These stats are nice, but as their ships are more expensive, RI simply cannot afford any early loss against ancients. They need to keep their ships safe, get more and ultimately create a nice swarm that raids everything using the 4 movements.

RI who loses 1-2 interceptors against ancients at turn 1-2 has simply lost the game.

I'll usually explore Z1 first, to allow later contact. But instead of doing risky business against ancients, I will virtually always follow by exploring a few zone 2-3 hexes to try to get any bonus tile that allows me to start fighting safely. Many bonuses are useful: free cruiser, +3 computer, +6 resources, even the double ion cannon, or triple hull..
Once you get just one decent stuff, use it and move immediately. With a bit of luck during early explorations, providing a decent boost, you can really play for the win.

The first time i saw them winning, they explored Z1, then Z3, got a free cruiser, attacked ancients, got a second free cruiser, and then crushed everything.
of course that's very lucky, but that's also what RI should aim at.

I really like RI but I definitely believe they are more exploration-dependant than many other classes (average hexes = no victory, just one hex with a significant bonus at turn 1-2 = a chance for victory).


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nicodsa wrote:
These stats are nice, but as their ships are more expensive, RI simply cannot afford any early loss against ancients. They need to keep their ships safe, get more and ultimately create a nice swarm that raids everything using the 4 movements.

RI who loses 1-2 interceptors against ancients at turn 1-2 has simply lost the game.

I'll usually explore Z1 first, to allow later contact. But instead of doing risky business against ancients, I will virtually always follow by exploring a few zone 2-3 hexes to try to get any bonus tile that allows me to start fighting safely. Many bonuses are useful: free cruiser, +3 computer, +6 resources, even the double ion cannon, or triple hull..
Once you get just one decent stuff, use it and move immediately. With a bit of luck during early explorations, providing a decent boost, you can really play for the win.

The first time i saw them winning, they explored Z1, then Z3, got a free cruiser, attacked ancients, got a second free cruiser, and then crushed everything.
of course that's very lucky, but that's also what RI should aim at.

I really like RI but I definitely believe they are more exploration-dependant than many other classes (average hexes = no victory, just one hex with a significant bonus at turn 1-2 = a chance for victory).




Really waking an old thread here, but I find the main point here to be particularly true. Unless you are playing an all-or-noting game, an 50% chance of losing a ship is not what you want to take on turn 1. You can most often easily leave that to turn 2 or 3, when you are more ready for it. Just find som shitty planets to put out up to two pop cubes on.

I woudl also like to add that average tiles for rho indi as an opening is not that bad. You really only want to use both of your colony ships the first turn. That is not so hard or unlikely. Then you are set up for turn 2 to take advantage of any ancients you explored on turn one, or just hunt for more in turn two. Shitty systems with only one population cube can always be abandoned later, when the relative gain vs an influence disk goes to shit.
 
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