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Subject: When the last mouse kills the last minion.... rss

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Michael Mesich
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Do you then add cheese to the minion wheel since it's the bottom of the initiative track and there are no minions?

I expect the answer is yes.

I fudged it for the two little girls I was playing the game with as it meant the difference between success and failure for our first chapter.

But now I'm wondering about players gaming the system to hold off with the last mouse and let a top of the list mouse finish off so that mice can get searches or an explore to the next map tile in before a cheese will hit the minion wheel.

I'm not a fan of that thematically.

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Seth Trammell
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Yes, but jerry says he house rules it, so you're good.
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Jon Ben
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mmesich wrote:
Do you then add cheese to the minion wheel since it's the bottom of the initiative track and there are no minions?

I expect the answer is yes.


By the rules yes you add cheese. Jerry, the designer, has house rules, which I find particularly odd but whatever, and he plays so that the cheese is not added if the last mouse on the initiative order kills the last enemy figure.

Quote:
But now I'm wondering about players gaming the system to hold off with the last mouse and let a top of the list mouse finish off so that mice can get searches or an explore to the next map tile in before a cheese will hit the minion wheel.

I'm not a fan of that thematically.


That house rule above does not help you with this problem. Players can kite the last enemy and do searches avoiding the cheese they would suffer if they bothered to kill the enemy before searching. It does seem counter-thematic to do that so if you feel that way then don't do it. For example you could say that in a round if no mice make an attack then a cheese is added to the minion wheel. You can game that a bit too like having Maginos attack and most likely fail
 
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Greg
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Ultimately I think it's a matter of who is playing. I don't have a problem either way. It can backfire on the players if they decide to hold off to the next turn because the Minion could either get a chance to attack and roll a cheese or defend and roll a cheese anyway, but it depends on where the Minion falls in initiative order. Also, the players could not successfully search anyway, or if they do, they can get a bad card and be in worse shape than if they had just killed the Minion on the previous turn.
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Jan Tuijp
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I think I'm going to houserule this: when the last minion on the board can't attack, he will roll for cheese anyway.

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Jerry Hawthorne
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JonBen wrote:


By the rules yes you add cheese. Jerry, the designer, has house rules, which I find particularly odd but whatever, and he plays so that the cheese is not added if the last mouse on the initiative order kills the last enemy figure.
I don't think it is that odd. If I am playing with my kids and one of them is the lowest on the initiative track when she defeats the last minion, I like to let them revel in that moment rather than be focusing on adding the cheese. In playtesting and adult games, I always add that cheese. That is why I mentioned in passing that I sometimes use that house rule.

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Jon Ben
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nobeerblues wrote:
JonBen wrote:

By the rules yes you add cheese. Jerry, the designer, has house rules, which I find particularly odd but whatever, and he plays so that the cheese is not added if the last mouse on the initiative order kills the last enemy figure.
I don't think it is that odd. If I am playing with my kids and one of them is the lowest on the initiative track when she defeats the last minion, I like to let them revel in that moment rather than be focusing on adding the cheese. In playtesting and adult games, I always add that cheese. That is why I mentioned in passing that I sometimes use that house rule.


Many people agree with you that it isn't odd based on the comments in the thread where you made that statement: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10393152#10393152

For the record you made no mention of motivation for this house rule or that it was used only occasionally.

nobeerblues wrote:
Technically, you are supposed to add a cheese, but In my house we consider this a freebie since a minion did exist at the beginning of the last mouse's turn.


It makes perfect sense to cheat a bit when you play a game with children, I'm sure everyone appreciates that. My comment was based on the notion that you always played with a modified rule, which is apparently not true making this a bit of moot point.

In general I would understand designers playing by different rules due to publisher interference. The cards that were added to Knizia's Tower of Babel come to mind. I have no idea if Knizia plays that game without the cards but I have heard that they were added by the publisher. I prefer the game without the cards and I like to think this is closer to what he intended. However, in the case of Mice and Mystics my understanding is that no such publisher interference existed. So if you did consistently play with slight rule tweaks I would find that odd and with good reason. If you prefer that version of the game why wouldn't you also publish that version of the game.
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Michael Mesich
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Making it an "official variant" is always a way to go as well.
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Mike Daneman
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I think that adding a cheese in this situation makes the game too "gamey". You have a mouse who can kill the minion, but because he's the last mouse on the track, he has no incentive to do it and will leave it to a mouse higher on the track. This seems non-thematic, so I'll probably house rule to only add cheese if the last mouse on the track STARTS the turn with no minions on the tile.
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Jon Ben
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Mishenka wrote:
I think that adding a cheese in this situation makes the game too "gamey". You have a mouse who can kill the minion, but because he's the last mouse on the track, he has no incentive to do it and will leave it to a mouse higher on the track. This seems non-thematic, so I'll probably house rule to only add cheese if the last mouse on the track STARTS the turn with no minions on the tile.


You've just moved the lack of incentive to the second to last mouse on the initiative track. They now refrain from killing the minion so that the last mouse starts their turn with a minion on the board.
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Josh Powell
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I agree the rules as stated give a weird incentive for the last mouse to NOT kill a minion in order to avoid getting the cheese on the cheese wheel...

How about this:

Do NOT remove initiative cards when all minions of that type are killed.

Instead, when you reach the end of the initiative track, remove any initiative cards for minions who have been wiped out. If there are no cards to remove, add a cheese.
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Josh Powell
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Oh nm, that wouldn't work because of the multiple boss minion cards.
 
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Jon Ben
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The fundamental issue is that players can game the system by letting one minion survive. I don't have a problem with that personally, but I understand why some wouldn't like this. It's a difficult issue to remedy because the game has to punish you when you clear the board otherwise being able to fail at searching is a lot less relevant. Deciding whether to stay and suffer a cheese or leave a room is an interesting bit of strategerie.

The only thing I can think of that might work is to start adding cheese to the wheel before the room is cleared. Perhaps if there are 0-2 minions on the board at the end of the last player's turn then a cheese is added. This is quite a bit more punishing but I don't think player's would let 3 minions stay alive just to avoid one cheese. That strategy only works if you can avoid all the minion attacks and with more minions this becomes very difficult.

EDIT:typo
 
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Jan Tuijp
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JonBen wrote:
The only thing I can think of that might work is to start adding cheese to the wheel before the room is cleared. Perhaps if there are 0-2 minions on the board at the end of the last player's turn then a cheese is added.


Wouldn't that be a bit harsh? The goal is to stimulate fair play, not to punish imperfect play, which this could boil down to. Suppose you have 5 minions on the board and try as you might, you only manage to kill 3. Seems unfair if you get cheesed on top of that. It would certainly change the game significantly.

My solution (when the last minion on the board is not able to attack, he rolls for cheese) has the benefit of adding incentive while not actually changing the game.

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Jan Tuijp
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Or another possibility: when there's only one minion left, out of despair he fights twice as hard and is allowed to attack twice.

 
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