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Subject: German tanks might be sold to Indonesia, please help to prevent this! rss

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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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While the world looks at the Middle East and the Arabin World,
this situation in West Papua is almost unreccogniced.

Indonesia brutally opresses the native population for more than 50 years now.

In the western half of New Guinea (currently officially called the provinces Papua and West Papua), at least 300.000 people were killed by the Indonesian military and police since Indonesia took control of the region. Indonesia usually claims that killings and human rights abuses by security forces are a thing of the past.
But despite there is in fact no freedom of the press in the region, and most international journalists and human rights organizations are not allowed to work there, almost every day there are new reports about rape, torture and targeted killings of political activists.
Using armoured vehicles against demonstrators is common practice of the security forces. Those were used for example last year as the Third Papuan Peoples congress was broken up by brutal force and at least 3 people were killed by military and police.
But in the past month, not only demonstrators are attacked by security forces. Many of do not hesitate to kill Papuans that are in there way. No matter if it is about exploiting the natural resources of a region, raping someone´s daughter or just because of a disagreement about a reservation of a billiard table (no fiction).

Now Indonesia has announced to buy German tanks. Angela Merkel yet only said there is no official request, but didn't say a word how to answer the request if it will be made official in a few days. This makes it very likely she will agree to sell about 140 tanks to Indonesia, an unstable nation where horrible crimes by security forces against civilians are the daily fare.

To prevent this, please support the following petition. Thank you!
http://petition.avaaz.org/en/petition/Dont_give_permission_t...




For more information about the situarion in West Papua,
have a look at
http://westpapuamedia.info/
or just search for "west papua military" at youtube. But be aware that some videos of human rights abuses are realy shocking.
Or simply ask your questions here, and I´ll answer them as good as I can.
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Marco
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1) Has there ever been a formalized plea that changed a big issue by 180°?
2) If Indonesia wants (and finally will get) tanks, why will it help to make sure they buy russian instead of german models?
3) Where is your petition against germany gifting nuclear capable submarines to Israel, an unstable nation; or against the saudi tank deal (they have their problems with human rights too)
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lotus dweller
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The image of an island nation, with human rights aspirations, purchasing tanks for use against it's own civilians is sad.

And this is nation that receives some money as foreign aid from other countries.

While stopping them purchasing tanks from Germany is a good iea, it will only be a stop gap measure as long as the Indonesian government is still at the beck and call of their corporatised military.

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Boaty McBoatface
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Pinook wrote:
The image of an island nation, with human rights aspirations, purchasing tanks for use against it's own civilians is sad.

And this is nation that receives some money as foreign aid from other countries.

While stopping them purchasing tanks from Germany is a good iea, it will only be a stop gap measure as long as the Indonesian government is still at the beck and call of their corporatised military.



I tend to agree, I really do not see what good this will do as long as we continue to send them money to buy the tanks (and continue to buy goods from them as well).
 
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It is not as bad as it looks like.

Those Leo2 tanks are too heavy for fighting in the jungle and will never leave the main island.

IMHO Indonesia only purchases them because Malaysia bought some Polish tanks. It's just some penis length issue without any real threat.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Hegel wrote:
It is not as bad as it looks like.

Those Leo2 tanks are too heavy for fighting in the jungle and will never leave the main island.

IMHO Indonesia only purchases them because Malaysia bought some Polish tanks. It's just some penis length issue without any real threat.
I take it then you only get demonstrations in the country side in Germany?

Tanks used in crowd control in an urban area.
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Jasper
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A similar initiative stopped the sale of dutch tanks to Indonesian, so hell yeah, it may work, even though Germany exchanges the ex colonizer angst for old-fashioned ww2 angst
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Tiruvor wrote:
1) Has there ever been a formalized plea that changed a big issue by 180°?


Yes, politicians care about the public opineon. (especially before elections). They might not listen to a dozen, but hundreds or thousands might make a difference.
And as Jasper saied, the Dutch parlimaent did not give permission to tank sales to Indonesia.


Tiruvor wrote:
2) If Indonesia wants (and finally will get) tanks, why will it help to make sure they buy russian instead of german models?

Yes, they will get some tanks somewhere. But this in no reason to sell them tanks. If someone wants to buy child pornography, he will find some unscrupulous criminals selling it to him. But does this convince you to produce and sell those things yourselfe?


Tiruvor wrote:
3) Where is your petition against germany gifting nuclear capable submarines to Israel, an unstable nation; or against the saudi tank deal (they have their problems with human rights too)

Here ts the Petition regarding Saudi Arabia:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/stoppt_den_panzerdeal/
I´m not sure if there is one about the submarines to Israel, but start one and I´ll upport it.





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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Hegel wrote:
It is not as bad as it looks like.

Those Leo2 tanks are too heavy for fighting in the jungle and will never leave the main island.

IMHO Indonesia only purchases them because Malaysia bought some Polish tanks. It's just some penis length issue without any real threat.


It´s hard to tell where Indonesia will use this tanks.
They are not verry useful in the jungle, but it is quite likely they will be used to break up demonstrations in urban areas like Jayapura and Sentani.
And if you look at the statement of Colonel Bambang Hartawan, I´d say its verry optimistic to believe the tanks will not be used against civilians.
"Who says it‘s one of the conditions?" Defence Ministry spokesman Colonel Bambang Hartawan, when asked if Indonesia had assured the German government that the tanks would not be used against its own people."Indonesia is a sovereign and civilized nation," he said.
( http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/indonesia-dismisses-human... )
 
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I'd be more worried if Indonesia was buying Marder 2's, or the S. African Armoured Cars they created for controlling riots during the Apartheit era.

Leopards? Waste of money for Indonesia. Let them buy 10 of those, rather than 100 Marder 2's, or 500 armoured cars.

As the other poster indicated, these are being bought as tools for sabre rattling, not for domestic crowd control. Tanks are really quite bad at that. Too expensive, too blind, too vulnerable.

Darilian
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lotus dweller
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"Indonesia is a ... and civilized nation," he said.
And we use tanks against civilians whenever convenient?
 
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Pinook wrote:
"Indonesia is a ... and civilized nation," he said.
And we use tanks against civilians whenever convenient?


Just be glad they just want to use tanks, instead of death squads.

Death squads are a lot more....convenient.

Darilian
 
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As a UK Citizen I'm a bit annoyed...

Selling arms to Indonesia to oppress it's own citizens is supposed to be the UKs job.

shake

Never mind we are still the 5th biggest arms exporter in the world. In recent years though Germany have been doing a raring trade - in at 3!
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lotus dweller
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monkeyhandz wrote:
...
In recent years though Germany have been doing a raring trade - in at 3!
Somebody ought to check the rules book - those damn Krauts were not meant to be making weapons for a very long time, unless they were making them for the US government, Von Braun.

edit: Brown Browne Broun Braun
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Pinook wrote:
monkeyhandz wrote:
...
In recent years though Germany have been doing a raring trade - in at 3!
Somebody ought to check the rules book - those damn Krauts were not meant to be making weapons for a very long time, unless they were making them for the US government, Von Broun.




Once the Rockets Are Up,
Who Cares Where They Come Down!
That's Not My Department!!!
Says Werner Von Braun.


Tom Lehrer, you are missed.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
Pinook wrote:
"Indonesia is a ... and civilized nation," he said.
And we use tanks against civilians whenever convenient?


Just be glad they just want to use tanks, instead of death squads.

Death squads are a lot more....convenient.

Darilian
Yes but when a death squad stands round outside the church talking about how they are going to go in and kill the priest we find that the priests so often get told! and then run! out the back door of the church!

The great advantage of the tank is that, when staffed by highly qualified and ethically trained members of TNI, the conversations and boasting between team members will not be audible to the priest's informants. And so after having been parked unobtrusively outside the church for 10 minutes or so with its 110 dB engine noise being the loudest thing in a rural town, it will come as a complete surprise to the priest, and any members of the congregation who are overly close to the priest, when the tank drives forward and gets trapped by the church building falling on top of it as it collides with the support structures. To that end not only are we purchasing tanks but we are also enacting laws such that church buildings must be constructed of materials that will not trap a tank. Our wisdom is vast, and resistance is futile, Indonesia is one indivisible nation, witness East Timor.
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Then you should be more afraid if Israel ever starts exporting their robotic armoured cars, which are capable of independent, preprogramable actions.

An army of robotic armoured cars with 25mm auto-cannon is a budding Third World Tinpot Genocidal Maniacs dream. They'll never have a crisis of conscience and dare to say no.

Darilian
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140 tanks.

There is another "enemy" that these can be used against beside "civilians".
That being the Indonesian Government.

If the tanks get delivered it will be interesting to see (a) their geographical deployment and (b) their spread across different command structures.

Unless things have changed dramatically within the Indonesian military, no Indonesian government in it's right mind would allow all these tanks to be stationed under the command of one grouping or individual within (whats the grognad word?) staging distance of the capital.

In S.E. Asia the loyalties of units and commanders are often complex, multi-threaded and not instantly recognizable or wholly reliable. Though eventually it becomes clear that everyone was supporting the winner all along.

Lets predict a balanced deployment spread across 2 or perhaps 3 commands that are already rivals.

Though maybe things have changed lately. If the tanks are delivered we'll find out.

These must be the joys that the US military chiefs are really disappointed to missing out on, "Will that battalion/command/wing/general/admiral do as commanded or try for a coup?" "If we get these weapons how much more of our current command structure and internal divisions are we going to reveal to our neighbours?"
 
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Darilian wrote:
I'd be more worried if Indonesia was buying Marder 2's, or the S. African Armoured Cars they created for controlling riots during the Apartheit era.

Leopards? Waste of money for Indonesia. Let them buy 10 of those, rather than 100 Marder 2's, or 500 armoured cars.


Acording to http://www.dw.de/indonesia-tank-deal-raises-moral-questions/... they want to buy 103 Leopard and 50 smaller Marder tanks.
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Darilian wrote:


Tom Lehrer, you are missed.

Darilian


You do know he's still alive, yes?
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chaendlmaier wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
Germany exchanges the ex colonizer angst for old-fashioned ww2 angst

Isn't ex colonizer angst more old-fashioned than ww2 angst?
Fascinating discussion. Start a thread?!?
 
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slatersteven wrote:


Tanks used in crowd control in an urban area.



Ummmmm... That picture is of one man holding up a line of four tanks, not the other way around.

(yes, I know the point you were trying to make)
 
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Why did it take four tanks to stop that man walking down the road?
Where is that man now?
Has he been killed by the Chinese government?
 
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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More than 1.200 people around the world have already signed the petition.
I you are not one of them, please do so now! Thank you!

http://petition.avaaz.org/en/petition/Dont_give_permission_t...
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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abrannan wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


Tanks used in crowd control in an urban area.



Ummmmm... That picture is of one man holding up a line of four tanks, not the other way around.

(yes, I know the point you were trying to make)
I also seem to recall they still crushed the demo.
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