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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Nova Seed + War Sun + Muaat racial ability to produce destroyesr rss

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Tim Burris
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Hey sorry if this question is already answered somewhere, i couldn't find it. The official ruling on Nova Seed says that Muaat ships in the system aren't affected - so does this mean that a War Sun can sit in the system pooping out destroyers for the rest of the game?? This seems ridiculous. Thanks!

We're going to rule that you can't do this in the future, regardless. This ended up seriously ruining someone's game tonight (the guy with a supernova and destroyer factory next to his home system) and seems to make no sense, though I don't know if it's really broken because it doesn't seem to be in Muaat's benefit to waste his command counters in this fashion. The player playing Muaat didn't care though, he was playing purely for the purpose of wreaking the most havoc.
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Jeremy
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The rules state that a Supernova may not be activated, but that does not affect the Muatt racial ability.

I would be inclined to allow this, although I might never again play with a person who attempted this, since they obviously aren't trying to win.
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Tim Burris
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The fact that the supernova can never be activated means the Muaat "detonation fleet" can never be evicted. This alone seems absurd even thematically.
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Scott Lewis
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The problem is with the player, not with the events in this case. If the player is deliberately just playing to wreak havoc and not win, I agree with the above poster - he would never be invited to another of my gaming sessions.

Winning isn't necessarily the important thing, but making an effort to win is - otherwise, it just screws the game up for everyone else (and this is true for pretty much every game).
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Scott M.
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Im going to agree on a totally different angle.

THe rule states that nothing happens to the ships there that created the nova, but no new ships may enter once left.

Well new ships entering via production would also fall under this. A new ship simply does not appear on later turns and gain the benefit of the original fleet that was there..

its a completely new unit! thus its destroyed.. the rule only protects the ORIGINAL FLEET!

and as sigma said.. its the player.. and in my games as well this is how i would play it.. and if they dont like it.. nut slapyuk.. and out the door.
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Fedor Syagin
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Bizud wrote:
The fact that the supernova can never be activated means the Muaat "detonation fleet" can never be evicted. This alone seems absurd even thematically.

I don't think this is what really bothers you - it's the fact that they can get out eventually that bothers you

Let's say Muat had Warsun in Wormhole nexus and then Wormholes are shutdown. Wouldn't bother anyone if he keeps popping up destroyers there. Nobody can get him there - but he also cannot get anyone. So the fact that he cannot be touched doesn't seem to be a problem.

As people mentioned here - this doesn't seem to be a winning move (hell most of the time getting supernova and that tech is not winning move.) but if I get player who get the tech, manage to get supernova and benefit from it and then makes fleet this way that actually benefit him and win - I would be impressed! Problem is as many strategies that seems scary they are just useless and actually don't hurt me. I mean in the end he probably will end up doing less damage to me with those destroyers that he could do if he just keep flying with Warsun itself and add destroyers. And once he moves out warsun - it's all over.
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Schack Attack
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The problem is that he can continuously produce destroyers, and then send out only the destroyers while maintaining the war sun inside the nova as a continuous production center for ships to do nothing but pester someones home world and severely limit their ability to do anything in the game. It forces you to maintain at least a decent defensive force in your home system (as if he decides to actually move the war sun you can be getting smacked by a war sun, 6 fighters and whatever number of destroyers he can fit in under fleet supply), which limits your ability to produce and move units out of your main production center. Would not be a problem if there was anything you can do about it, but the rule just doesn't make any sense. IMO the sun should be forced to retreat after nuking a system, although I would be open to the ruling that one of the above posters presented: The original fleet in the nova is protected, but you are unable to produce new units in the supernova.
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Fedor Syagin
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dschack wrote:
Would not be a problem if there was anything you can do about it, but the rule just doesn't make any sense. IMO the sun should be forced to retreat after nuking a system, although I would be open to the ruling that one of the above posters presented: The original fleet in the nova is protected, but you are unable to produce new units in the supernova.

This can happen only if there was no red system close to it and he actually allowed warsun to be next to homeworld in the first place.
Would it be annoying? A bit - Game breaking? Not really - since worse destroyers can do is blockading space docks. He cannot produce carriers or ground forces this way.
Having fleet that can take care of couple of destroyers in home system is not bad thing anyway.
Annoying? Indeed. Game breaking - not really.

What I am trying to say - not everything that really annoying and what player can do not for actual win but just trolling purpose can do should be illegal! I totally agree it's annoying as hell - but it doesn't mean that rules need to be house ruled for just this.
I might be wrong.
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leonardo regis
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same with the Ratmens hability to get into the asteroids.. it could block moves across it....

I dont thing it brake the game, its just situacional, and as said, if u are playing to win such things doesnt happen that much...
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Scott M.
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I truly believe this scenario cant happen at all as previously stated, you cant add ships to a nova sector after the fact, albeit fly in or build in... period.
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Scott Lewis
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atraangelis wrote:
I truly believe this scenario cant happen at all as previously stated, you cant add ships to a nova sector after the fact, albeit fly in or build in... period.

While that's certainly a fine way to rule it in your group, there's no official rule that says this.

The only FAQ ruling I'm aware of simply says "Any ships in that system are unaffected and may freely move out of that system during a later turn. However, once these ships move out of the system, they may not move back
in."

There's nothing that says anything about not letting War Suns deploy Destroyers; it only says if they move out, they can't move back in, not that new ships cannot be placed there at all.
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muthrali the relentless
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I'd say it's ok to do so. There can be lots of reasons to to "block" someone in their HS.And if the Muaat is willing to dedicate one of their WS's to guard a players HS instead of using it for other purposes, well thats fine by me (hoping i am the other neighbour of course ). I would do so myself if it would get me closer to winning the game.

Notwithstanding the fact i hate people who don't try to win intentionally. Blame Risk for that

"I am not going to risk australia to invade South East Asia after that guy gained control of Asia this turn" - the horror, the horror!!!
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Tim Burris
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I agree with garfielder, although to be fair, as Schack Attack noted, you need to keep enough of a defensive fleet to deal with not only the Destroyers that he keeps sending out, but also the War Sun itself if it ever decides to actually move out.

We didn't end up finishing this game but I wish we had because I think that after a few more turns it would have become apparent that Muaat was really running out of steam and even though he had the speaker token to take leadership the next turn AND even though he had the mercenary that lets him steal the leadership strategy on the next turn, and an action card to let him keep it still ANOTHER turn, if all he is going to do is spend his CC's on Destroyers, he will do less harm to the player he is trying to troll than if he built up a second war sun and a conventional navy and kept attacking. Get all your PDS on the board and go take some of Muaat's systems.

As an aside, perhaps coincidentally but perhaps not, the players on the other sides of the two feuding neighbours (myself included) were more than happy to see it continue, while the player between the two of us (it was a 5-player game) was not.

I also don't think the Muaat player started out with an intention to suicide, but definitely was intent on "fucking shit up," then saw what Nova Seed does, THEN once he blew up the system and found he could stay there, once he saw how angry it was making the other player, decided he couldn't resist doing more of what was making him angry.
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Thomas Petersen
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All this talk got me thinking, and maybe it was stated earlier, if so, I apologize. Since supernovas may never be activated by any player, including the Muaat, would the use of a the Nova Seed cause the CC from a previous activation to be removed from the board? Would this be a one time free warfare?
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Fedor Syagin
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Bizud wrote:

I also don't think the Muaat player started out with an intention to suicide, but definitely was intent on "fucking shit up," then saw what Nova Seed does, THEN once he blew up the system and found he could stay there, once he saw how angry it was making the other player, decided he couldn't resist doing more of what was making him angry.

I have to say if someone tried it in our game we wouldn't rule this out - but the Muat player would have lost every planet he had probably starting with home system - when people notice that all person does is spawn destroyers and attack one player - then his other neighbor and anyone else in reach (via wormhole) just see attack of opportunity.
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Tim Burris
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Yes, that would have happened eventually but apparently what Muaat was doing was making the game "no fun" for two of the other players, so we agreed to end the game.
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Fedor Syagin
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Bizud wrote:
Yes, that would have happened eventually but apparently what Muaat was doing was making the game "no fun" for two of the other players, so we agreed to end the game.

Good call I have to say.

I wonder how you managed to start a game and have it going that long if someone was clearly up for no good. You are better and more patient men than I am clearly...
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Ian Madsen
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I received a reply from FFG on this question:
Corey Konieczka wrote:
Yes, the Muaat may spawn fighters in this system if a War Sun is present.

I hope this answers your question!
-Corey Konieczka
VP of R&D
Fantasy Flight Games

Ian Andrews Madsen wrote:
Rule Question:
This question involves both expansions. After a Muaat War Sun has utilized their Nova Seed racial technology to turn a system into a Supernova, may the Muaat use their racial ability to spawn fighters and destroyers inside the Supernova before moving the War Sun out of the Supernova?
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Barnaby Alsop
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Ok, so here is a thing.
if Muatt can produce via war sun in the nova system they created (as per the above confirmation) - then the same applies to their flagship (produce cruisers).
This then offers the interesting strategy of obtaining nova seed, then the FG and sending it with a WS to: a) a poor uncontested system next to MC. b) a key centralised system in range of VP objectives (artifacts etc). c) a system next to another players HS (should you have conquering HS objectives or they are a threat etc)
You then supernova the system and end up with an unassailable production centre/strike force that cannot be targeted by PDS (supernovas cannot be activated) but is in a position to slowly build up/stall until opportunity presents itself.devil
Is it the best of strategies? Possibly not. Is it viable? Certainly. Would it be fun? Assuredly!
Any thoughts?
 
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David Damerell
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I'm not sure I see the problem here. The Saar can produce an unassailable production centre; and, like the Saar, it does you little good if you're swept off the rest of the board (because you will only be recieving a trickle of CC to make units with).
 
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Barnaby Alsop
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Agreed,such a strategy only works if your homeworld and economy are secure. However the beauty of such unassailable spots is that they don't need to
be protected - you can build up at leasure as and when CCs or resources permit, yet at the same time you are a threat to unguarded/vulnerable areas.
Meanwhile, you can bolster defences, expand, gain VPs etc 'back in the homeland'
Where the Muatt trump the Saar in this regard is they have no FS cap in the supernova-so can send out bigger, non-fighter fleets. Also, they cannot be sniped by pds when building.
Sure, CCs can be a problem - but then they are for many races, it all depends on set-up.
Next time I play as Muaat I'll give it a shot (set up permitting!) and let you know how it pans out.
 
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JH
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Why wouldn't they be affected by Fleet Supply in the Supernova? Muaat ships can stay in a Nova Seed-affected space if they're already there when it turns into a Supernova, but there's nothing about that to change basic Fleet Supply rules. They'd still be limited to a total fleet of however many CCs are in their FS pool. Clarified.

Honestly, unless you fill up the War Sun with GFs before you set off the Nova Seed (or bring a couple GF-loaded carriers along), you can't do much besides harass and blockade, and meanwhile half your War Sun firepower is locked up, negating any advantage of having it as a fighting ship. Seems like an impractical and limiting strategy at best given the trouble, time and resource/CC expenditure you'll have to dedicate just to get it set up in the first place (how many ships can you realistically build this way each round and still be able to maneuver/build enough elsewhere to fulfill objectives?).

Might be fun to do if you're behind and just want to grief someone, but not as a VP generator unless it allows you to fulfill your secret objective. Could be more effective with flagship, but then you've got that out of commission as a combat vessel.

A few PDS installations with DSC, some GFs and fighters stationed at home (which I would have anyway) and a modest home fleet would take a lot of the bite out of this as a threat — if you're going this route, I don't think you can afford to trickle out or waste the ships you're building this way. I'd probably take Leadership or Logistics as often as possible, too (or bribe others to do it), to cut down on your supply of CCs.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I agree with JH - there's nothing to indicate that regular Fleet Supply rules wouldn't apply.

With the Saar, while their fleet supply is capped at 3, their regular fighter support would still follow normal rules as well.
 
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Barnaby Alsop
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I mean Saar are limited to a FS of 3 max in an asteroid field meaning they either need to buy intergrated economy tech or constantly move ships out of the system with activations to get an effective fleet.
Muaat can have as many cruisers and destroyers as their fleet supply allows - this gives them more flexibility.



 
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Scott Lewis
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Ah, ok. Agreed
 
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