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Subject: It´s time to vote for the BEST COMBINATORIAL 2-PLAYER GAME OF 2011/2012 AWARD rss

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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Until 30th of November you can vote for the best combiatorial 2-player game of 2011/2012 by thumbing games on this list:
BEST COMBINATORIAL 2-PLAYER GAME OF 2011/2012 AWARD

For the 3 (or more if there is a tie) games with the most thumbs, I´ll than make a poll to finally determine the winner.


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Russ Williams
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To be honest, I'm a little worried that the voting rules were sort of hastily created and ad hoc without much discussion; I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who's not had time to try most of the nominated games, so it seems probable that games with very little exposure/marketing will get fewer thumbs regardless of their merits. :/ I wish there'd been a longer nomination period, or that more than only 3 of the higher-thumbed ones would progress to the next stage. (Which might be better served by a ranking voting system instead of "pick just one" system.)
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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russ wrote:
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who's not had time to try most of the nominated games, so it seems probable that games with very little exposure/marketing will get fewer thumbs regardless of their merits.


I agree, but isn´t this ture for almost all awards? I´m sure noone has playes all the games nominated for the GoldenGeek Award.

I can only say for myselfe, that I only tried the games that cought my interrest when reading the rules. Maybe I have missed a great game by doing so, then so be it.


The second step will not be a "pick one" poll.
But you´re right, maybe more than 3 games shoul enter the second phase.
But I don´t think I can change such an important rule of the contest without asking the crowd.
 
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Poll
How many games should be selected for the 2nr round?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
3 (+ ties)
14.3% 2
10 (+ ties)
85.7% 12
Voters 14
This poll is now closed.   14 answers
Poll created by Markus Hagenauer
Closes: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:00 am
 
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Russ Williams
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Markus Hagenauer wrote:
russ wrote:
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who's not had time to try most of the nominated games, so it seems probable that games with very little exposure/marketing will get fewer thumbs regardless of their merits.


I agree, but isn´t this ture for almost all awards? I´m sure noone has playes all the games nominated for the GoldenGeek Award.

Right, but I thought your goal was to do better than the Golden Geek awards.

Quote:
The second step will not be a "pick one" poll.

Cool; how will it work? (Were these procedures discussed and decided somewhere that I don't know about?)

Quote:
But you´re right, maybe more than 3 games shoul enter the second phase.
But I don´t think I can change such an important rule of the contest without asking the crowd.

Agreed.
 
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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russ wrote:
Quote:
The second step will not be a "pick one" poll.

Cool; how will it work? (Were these procedures discussed and decided somewhere that I don't know about?)


No, there was no discussion. But it´s not to late.

I thought about someting like the BGG ranking system would be best.
Everyone can rate the nominees 1-10. Than I´ll add 10 dummies (do you think thats too much / not enough) rating it 5,5 and calculate the average.


 
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Russ Williams
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I'm personally a fan of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting (aka Australian voting system):

People write a list of the games they want to vote for in order from best to least. (Don't know a game? Simply don't write it.)

Then the moderator (you) does a series of voting rounds, where each voter is considered to vote for the game at the head of their list.

If some game gets a majority of votes, it's the winner; done.

If not, remove the game(s) which got the fewest votes, and repeat.
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Russ, don´t you think this way the game known by most of the voters is verry likely to win. And games that are great but only 49% of the voters know them don´t have a chance, right?
And a game that everybody ranks second - and so maybe has the best average ranking - would drop off in the first round.
 
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Russ Williams
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Markus Hagenauer wrote:
Russ, don´t you think this way the game known by most of the voters is verry likely to win.

Only if it really is good. E.g. suppose everyone knows game X, and only half the people know Y and half know Z. But most people think Y or Z are better. Then most people will vote "Y,X" or "Z,X" respectively, and X - despite possibly appearing in everyone's list - will receive 0 votes in the first round, so be dropped. (If X & Y receive equally many votes, then there's a tie, but then ties are a risk with every voting scheme...)

But the meta-response is that I hope people will explore some more of the candidates if there is enough time. Especially with abstract strategy games, it's often easy to try them without needing to buy them.


Quote:
And games that are great but only 49% of the voters know them don´t have a chance, right?

I don't think so, because other games might be knocked out first. But you might be right.

Quote:
And a game that everybody ranks second - and so maybe has the best average ranking - would drop off in the first round.


That is true. Whether it's a bug or a feature is less clear...

I.e. if literally no one thinks that game X is the best, one might well argue that it's a bit silly if game X ended up getting the award.

One conceptual difference between the 2 proposed systems is that the 1-10 rating approach is numerically oriented and permits announcing a 2nd & 3rd place winner if desired, whereas the election system is oriented toward a clear unique winner and everyone else simply lost.

And the 1-10 rating system permits people to indicate that they like 2 games equally instead of forcing them to rank one higher than the other; whether that's a bug or a feature is also less clear...

But I mentioned this just as an alternative for discussion - I certainly don't mean to suggest I have some strong arguments for one or the other. I don't have any deep objections to doing it like BGG ratings, except that it permits people to intentionally directly trash games they don't like or don't even know (by giving them "1" ratings) to help their favorite game instead of giving "honest" ratings in a way that the preferential instant-run-off voting doesn't.

Well, and there's the whole question of whether it makes sense to add in some average "dummy votes", and if so how many, and why.

Well, and if we're just going to use something like the BGG ratings, why go through this whole thing at all, when the BGG ratings already exist and are calculated for us? Just see which of the eligible titles has the highest BGG rating.
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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russ wrote:


Well, and there's the whole question of whether it makes sense to add in some average "dummy votes", and if so how many, and why.

Well, and if we're just going to use something like the BGG ratings, why go through this whole thing at all, when the BGG ratings already exist and are calculated for us? Just see which of the eligible titles has the highest BGG rating.


With no dummy votes, a game only known by a single user (maybe the designer ;-) ) that gives it a 10 will win.

You´re right, we could simply look at the BGG rating. But regarding the few ratings most of the games have, this is not really representative. Maybe our voting (I guess with only a few dozens of users at the end) is not really representative too, but I think its worth giving it a try.


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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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Lopez123 wrote:
Markus Hagenauer wrote:
russ wrote:


Well, and there's the whole question of whether it makes sense to add in some average "dummy votes", and if so how many, and why.

Well, and if we're just going to use something like the BGG ratings, why go through this whole thing at all, when the BGG ratings already exist and are calculated for us? Just see which of the eligible titles has the highest BGG rating.


With no dummy votes, a game only known by a single user (maybe the designer ;-) ) that gives it a 10 will win.

You´re right, we could simply look at the BGG rating. But regarding the few ratings most of the games have, this is not really representative. Maybe our voting (I guess with only a few dozens of users at the end) is not really representative too, but I think its worth giving it a try.




What when a group of individuals sharing interests do give to their game`s friend 10 ?



Thats how democracy works. The one with the most "friends" will win.
I don´t think there is a votiong system to rule this out.
But I´m confident the most voters will be sincere.


 
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Luis Bolaños Mures
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russ wrote:
I'm personally a fan of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting (aka Australian voting system):

Me too. It's the fairest system, IMO.
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Markus Hagenauer wrote:
Russ, don´t you think this way the game known by most of the voters is verry likely to win. And games that are great but only 49% of the voters know them don´t have a chance, right?
And a game that everybody ranks second - and so maybe has the best average ranking - would drop off in the first round.

If there is no immediate winner, it depends on the number of games included. You only drop the lowest scoring (i.e. least number of votes) candidate each time. Redistribute their votes and do it all over again. It is quite possible for a candidate from a large pool who was initially second or third to win.
 
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Karlsen wrote:
Markus Hagenauer wrote:
Russ, don´t you think this way the game known by most of the voters is verry likely to win. And games that are great but only 49% of the voters know them don´t have a chance, right?
And a game that everybody ranks second - and so maybe has the best average ranking - would drop off in the first round.

If there is no immediate winner, it depends on the number of games included. You only drop the lowest scoring (i.e. least number of votes) candidate each time. Redistribute their votes and do it all over again. It is quite possible for a candidate from a large pool who was initially second or third to win.

To be clear, I think Markus didn't mean it gets the second most votes, but that everyone ranked it 2nd on their lists, i.e. no one put it first in their lists; such a game would indeed thus receive 0 votes in the first round and be eliminated from further consideration.

And one could debate whether that's a bug or a feature - to me it seems reasonable that a candidate which no one likes enough to put at their top of their list should not be the winner... It's likely to be, at best, a "solid but not outstanding" kind of game.
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True that
 
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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I´d till prefere a system where you can rate more than one game simmilar.
Maybe 10 different ratings are not necessary.

How about the choice to gibe every game +2, +1, 0, -1 or -2 ?

And than simply add up all the votes. So if someone does not know / vote for a game, it´s a neutral 0. And games a lot of people know, but half of them does not like will be weaker than a game only a few people know, but everyone likes. But the winner will be most likely a game that quite a few people know and most of them like.

What do you think?


 
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Markus Hagenauer wrote:
I´d till prefere a system where you can rate more than one game simmilar.
Maybe 10 different ratings are not necessary.

How about the choice to gibe every game +2, +1, 0, -1 or -2 ?

And than simply add up all the votes. So if someone does not know / vote for a game, it´s a neutral 0. And games a lot of people know, but half of them does not like will be weaker than a game only a few people know, but everyone likes. But the winner will be most likely a game that quite a few people know and most of them like.

What do you think?

I notice one thing:

Let's say I love game X and think it should definitely win. So I rate it 2.

I like game Y and think it's better than average. So in principle I rate it 1.

But game X is not well-known, while many people like game Y. So I fear that by giving anything positive to game Y, I'm hurting the likelihood that game X has any chance of winning. Which leaves me feeling like I should rate Y -1 and all the rest -2, perhaps. Or all of them -2, if I really feel X is the clearly only worthy winner.

With the preference ranking, I can directly express that X is my first choice, Y is my second choice, and doing so in no way hurt's X's chance of winning any more than if Y were my lowest choice. Even if X seems unlikely to win, I can still say it's my first choice, and if I'm right that most people don't like it, then the system goes to my backup vote for Y, and so on.
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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I know tactical votes are possibel in the system I suggested.
But don´t you think a large majority of users is sincere?


russ wrote:
With the preference ranking, I can directly express that X is my first choice, Y is my second choice, and doing so in no way hurt's X's chance of winning any more than if Y were my lowest choice. Even if X seems unlikely to win, I can still say it's my first choice, and if I'm right that most people don't like it, then the system goes to my backup vote for Y, and so on.


But as I sayed above, I´m affraid that a lot of users only know a few games and have their "hidden gem" X. And game Y ranked second or third behind that game could trop out early, although most players think it´s great.



 
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Hey! Where's Kingdom Builder!? I want to vote for that!



SCNR
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Perhaps everyone could pick their top three/five/ten games and rank them in order of preference, with points assigned in descending order.

For example:

1. Turbo Go (3 points)
2. Dryzabone (2 points)
3. SHARTZ (1 point)

The scale could easily be adjusted if you guys are afraid of lesser-known games getting steamrolled (maybe have the point spread be 10/5/3). That way, if a game was number one on three peoples' lists, it wouldn't be instantly crushed by a popular (but kinda meh) game that lots of people have as their second or third choice.
 
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Ultimately I toss up my hands and say "I really don't know which way would be best. I can see arguments for all proposals."
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They do all have their drawbacks. I've observed the one I proposed in a similar application to what we have here, and the main issue was that people who voted later were able to calculate the prior results and manipulate their own lists accordingly

e.g. "My favorite has no chance of winning, and it looks like it's down to Game A versus Game B. Game A is ahead, and I hate that game, so I'll put Game B in my number one slot."

I should also note that this problem does get worse the more you tamper with the point spread.
 
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D Beau wrote:
They do all have their drawbacks. I've observed the one I proposed in a similar application to what we have here, and the main issue was that people who voted later were able to calculate the prior results and manipulate their own lists accordingly

For that reason I think votes should be sent privately (and revealed afterward), rather than published as people vote.
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Markus Hagenauer jr.
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D Beau wrote:
They do all have their drawbacks. I've observed the one I proposed in a similar application to what we have here, and the main issue was that people who voted later were able to calculate the prior results and manipulate their own lists accordingly


There is no way to make a poll that does not show the results before the end, right?

 
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Markus Hagenauer wrote:
D Beau wrote:
They do all have their drawbacks. I've observed the one I proposed in a similar application to what we have here, and the main issue was that people who voted later were able to calculate the prior results and manipulate their own lists accordingly


There is no way to make a poll that does not show the results before the end, right?

I don't know if BGG polls can work that way or not.
But people could just geekmail you directly, right? I'm guessing there won't be a huge number of ballots to handle...
 
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