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Subject: When would I ever want to forfeit an agenda? rss

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Some cards like Data Dealer and Archer require a player to forfeit an agenda as part of a cost to play them or use their abilities. I'm a new player and am still trying to figure out strategy, but I'm at a loss for why I'd want to include these cards in my deck. Someone please tell me what I'm missing.

Are these cards just "win more"? If I'm in a position where I have enough agendas scored that I could comfortably lose one, it I'd rather just keep scoring agendas and win the game rather than give up my lead.

In the case of Data Dealer, I had better be very sure that those nine credits are going to be used to score me an agenda worth more points, which seems like a too-narrow application to be worth a slot in my deck. And in the case of Archer, is that ICE really so excellent that having it on my server will guarantee that I can score enough agendas to make up for the initial loss?

(Or should I just always be rezzing Archer with Priority Requisition and never paying its real cost?)
 
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David Boeren
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One point agendas exist.
 
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Justin
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Most seem to think that Data Dealer is a horrible card. I happen to agree. Archer, on the other hand, can win games by itself. Within the faction, there are two distinct "cheap" 1-point agendas which can be forfeited to it. Outside, NBN has a 1-pointer, HB can play it with Accelerated Beta Test, and all corps (as you mention) can rez it with Priority Requisition. Personally, I wouldn't think twice about throwing a 2-point agenda at it if I can surprise the runner with one.
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Aaron Hedegaard
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It's basically a trade-off: giving up an agenda now for an advantage in a longer game. Giving up a 1 point agenda for an Archer in a surprise rez can ruin a runner by trashing his programs, or make a remote server much tougher to score more subsequent agendas.

Data Dealer, in my limited opinion, is still pretty questionable. 9 credits is a lot, but it's not anything particularly unique/special, and it will probably just fund stealing another different agenda. If that agenda is worth more points than the one you trashed, good for you, but it's a risky prospect without Infiltration, etc. Archer has a bit more punch to justify the tradeoff, and has more versatility than the obvious "use this to score more points."
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B C Z
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1 point Agenda:
Breaking News (NBN)
Hostile Takeover (conveniently in Weyland)
Posted Bounty (conveniently in Weyland)

2 point Agenda:
Everything else except...

3 point Agenda:
Priority Requisition

-=-=-

Reasons to Forfeit an Agenda:
to Rez Archer
to gain 9 Credits via Data Dealer

-=-=-

In the case of Rezzing Archer, I wouldn't sacrifice a 3 point to it unless it would set the Runner back significantly, though if the choice is between "Lose 3 points now" and "Lose the game now" it's a pretty obvious choice.

On the Runner's Side - if Data Dealer has been (a) Put in the Deck and (b) played (astronomically unlikely unless playing out of the box as things currently stand...) then Sacrificing a 1 pointer for 9 credits NOW to run against a known 2 or 3 pointer if you are at 6 or 5 points (respectively) is a game winner similar to Stimhack's 9 credits (free brain damage with every vial).

The issue with Data Dealer is that you have to:
(1) Draw it (action)
(2) Play it (action)
(3) Use it (action + sacrifice a stolen Agenda card)
in order to get 9 credits. Used once that is 3credit/action (and loss of a stolen Agenda card). Used twice it's 4.something credit/action (and loss of two stolen Agenda cards). It doesn't really account for the cost of the Run to obtain the Agenda in the first place.

Later, if we get more one point Agenda, it may prove to be useful against some Corporations, but there are generally better ways to spend 1 card slot and 3 clicks to get 9 credits.
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S. R.
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Ehm...okay Herr is why DataDealer can WKN Games and I had 1-2 Games Wehre I was Damm Lucky to have it: in the Case you have Scored agendas and youre Sure the next Turn is the Turn where your Opponent will Score a tiebreaker, a winning Agenda cause he has Already 4-5 points or where u have nö decoy and your Opponent is going to Score a bounty, you Might be happy to Play Data Dealer, forfeit and have the Money to Score that One to Win or Even Not to lose...its Not a Bad card...but it requires Knowledge, Timing and Caution...
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Trent Hamm
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Surprising someone with Archer when they don't have adequate icebreaking capabilities can win you the game, period. You can completely wreck their board with just one card, setting them back a lot of turns. That's well worth sacrificing a one point agenda.
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S. R.
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Sorry for the iOS spelling things...
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mfl134
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Perhaps Data Dealer will get better if there are agendas that result in an ongoing penalty after the runner steals them.
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Justin
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Ra1d wrote:
Ehm...okay Herr is why DataDealer can WKN Games and I had 1-2 Games Wehre I was Damm Lucky to have it: in the Case you have Scored agendas and youre Sure the next Turn is the Turn where your Opponent will Score a tiebreaker, a winning Agenda cause he has Already 4-5 points or where u have nö decoy and your Opponent is going to Score a bounty, you Might be happy to Play Data Dealer, forfeit and have the Money to Score that One to Win or Even Not to lose...its Not a Bad card...but it requires Knowledge, Timing and Caution...

Unless a card is blank, it can do...something. That situations exist where Data Dealer might be desirable isn't necessarily an argument that the card/influence wouldn't be better-spent on something else: Stimhack, for a close example.
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S. R.
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Here the thing...playing crimimal: 1-2 stimhack, at least 1 gordian and a yog or 2 gordian, 1 corroder at least = 7-12 Influence without something to draw like diesel...Data Dealer 1 Times for Sure = nö cost...
 
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S. R.
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1-2 stimhack, 2 gordian, 2 Diesel, 2 corroder = 15-16 Influence without something Else u might wanna play...Even with 2 stimhack, yog, 2 Diesel, 2 corroder and gordian for 14 Influence, 1 do One Data Dealer for Sure against Weiland and nbn 1 scorer and Tight 1 Server Players its makes Sense...
 
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Michele Lupo
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I run 1 copy of data dealer in my Criminal Decks and honestly, the more time passes, the more useful i find it.

It's a tool for the long game when 9 credits can make the difference between victory or defeat. I won a game where i forfeited 5 points worth of agendas because suddenly the corp had no more safe servers to advance and score.

At that point, I'd happily forfeit 3 points to take your two.

It's a big move so I would only use it if i exposed my target first
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Peter O
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Not with the current card set, but I could see a runner like Noise use Data Dealer to fund a win by decking the corporation. Currently it's probably just better to run archives for scoring agendas, but I see it theoretically possible for a deck to win by decking.
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Joseph Courtight
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With data dealer if you use it to capture an agenda you are not just trading one agenda for another you are preventing the corp from scoring that agenda.
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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This is an obnoxious corner case, but you could use Data Dealer as a runner in the first game of a match to stall the game fairly deeply, then play a fast advance style corp deck in the second game to insure a win. Really obnoxious, but an outside possibility.
 
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Jack Kelly
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A runner deck that only uses agendas to fund its war chest sounds like fun, but if you're forced to play runner first aren't you going to have trouble with time pressure while you wait for the corp to deck itself?
 
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Adam Ross
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Forfeited agendas go in the corps archives or back in the box?
 
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mfl134
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Adam Ross
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mfl134 wrote:
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Cheers
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Peter O
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endgame wrote:
A runner deck that only uses agendas to fund its war chest sounds like fun, but if you're forced to play runner first aren't you going to have trouble with time pressure while you wait for the corp to deck itself?


Hence it may not be practical yet. Using current cards the deck would be something like Noise with 3 Mediums and 3 Demolition Runs. Suppose you can run R&D on demand after trashing all the ICE there with parasites and stuff. If you got 2 Mediums out with 4 counters each, the following turn 2 Demolition Runs would send 20 cards to the archives. Assume another 10 cards from Noise's special (or random trashables from setting up medium) and you're at 30 cards. Add five due to the starting hand and we're at 35 cards. That means if you can pull off the 2 Mediums with virus counters and 2 Demolition Runs the corp only gets 10 turns total. It probably takes a little longer than that and the corp may protect R&D heavily if they catch on, but that's okay. Just become a normal runner and go for an agenda win.

Oh, be careful of Snare!
 
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Jorge G.
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Don't know about Data Dealer, but consider this NBN example for Archer:

It's mid/late game. You have 5 Agenda Points (2 PSF, 1 Breaking News) but the runner is consistently entering everywhere, with also 4+ points and a good rig up and running. A Priority Requisition sits scared in your hand as the runner enters HQ and by pure chance doesn't catch it. Your Tollbooths have been Parasited, Femme-Fataled, or simply paid for with a Gordian Blade and some saving; the rest is cheap early game ice, desperately staring at you with that "what do we do now?" look.

And then -splashed from Weyland- Archer shows up in your hand, with a superhero's grin in his digital face as he stretches his bow...

As long as the runner can't cope with it, Archer there just wins you the game: hit Corroder/Battering Ram/etc. and all of a sudden your walls become impenetrable again, and you can safely score Priority Requisition behind a little cheap barrier, or behind Archer himself if safe. Hit Gordian Blades and Yogs and the same goes for your Enigmas and such.

The bolded part is there to remember, always, to do the math before rezzing it and see if the runner can actually pay to break the trashing: in one game I had Ninja and a Datasucker, and expecting an Archer I simply ran the Archives for the token and then used Ninja to break it for 6 credits... And in one game as Corp, I forgot the amount of Datasucker tokens my Mimic user had already, and then he easily passed it through for even less. Lesson there: either rez it only when effective, or to drain the runner from credits. Or, more commonly, run the magic combo of Archer+Troubleshooter...

And all that for 1 point you don't actually need, anyway, since at 5 or 6 Agenda Points, your next one will likely exceed the 7 needed.

I don't know; maybe it's the fact that I fell in love with the card as soon as i've seen it, but I think the agenda cost is many, many times, very little against the huge situational benefits.
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Tyler Bancroft
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Quote:
(Or should I just always be rezzing Archer with Priority Requisition and never paying its real cost?)


One of the real strengths of Archer, that you're missing by rezzing it with Priority Req, are the four subroutines.

If it's already rezzed, the runner won't make a run on that server unless they know for certain they can get past that damn thing. However, if you wait and throw away a 1 point agenda and the runner doesn't have a sentry breaker, or the massive amount of credits it takes to break it then you just changed the pace of the game as you get to wreck them up pretty good.

Also, by rezzing it before it's needed it becomes a target to Parasites and Femme Fatales.

The less the runner knows about your defenses the better.

Having said that, if you can rez it for free with Priority Req., I think that's a great move. You may not hit them with the subs, but you definitely made that server harder to run for at least a couple turns.
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Micheal Keane
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tranenturm wrote:

Oh, be careful of Snare!


The nice thing about Medium is that you *may* access cards, unlike Maker's Eye where you *must*.

Furthermore, you get to decide whether to continue after you access each individual card.

A big Medium run against Jinteki can turn into a game of Press Your Luck, do you keep accessing cards and hope for another agenda or do you not risk running into a WhammySnare!?
 
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jeremy b
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you probably want to forfeit an agenda to prevent the other player from winning the game.

e.g.
-to surprise a runner with archer, when she would otherwise successfully run and score the game-winning agenda
-to fuel a run (via data dealer) and steal an agenda that would otherwise be scored by the corp on the following turn

it's a long-game play. and it's a particularly difficult decision when the agenda being sacrificed is worth more than 1 agenda point. but sometimes it's the right call.
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