Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Revolution: The Dutch Revolt 1568-1648» Forums » Rules

Subject: A couple of rules questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay, these rules questions did not get much of a response in the thread I posted in the General Discussion forum, so I pulled them out of the article to post here. I will be running this game at a local event on 12/10 and I am starting in with a PBEM game now too, so I would appreciate any discussion on these that develops. Here they are:

Quote:
One item that is not covered clearly enough by the rules concerns Abandoned Armies. The rules state that after being abandoned, an army with loot a town or province and then be turned over to indicate that it can not take any further actions. The rules also state that the abandoned army is to be removed from the board at the end of the turn. As the rules do not state that the army is moved, only turned over, we were in agreement that the abandoned army remains in the control box. It was felt that the reason the armies are not removed immediately is to prevent the army being raised somewhere else that turn and to hold one control box and possibly prevent another army from moving into the region. Then, the debate began. An abandoned army was in a control box and outnumbered in the region by an opposing faction. Is the abandoned army eliminated during combat? What if there were two abandoned armies from the same faction, would they take an opposing army with them? Some believed not, that such would be considered additional actions. Others believed that they should engage in combat as normal, which could lead to only abandoned armies left in a region. We played it with the abandoned armies not partaking in the battles, which led to the next problem. Military Influence can not be exerted by armies in command blocks with other faction armies. An abandoned army is still in the command block, so would it prevent military influence? Even if the army survived combat and was stood off, would it prevent military influence by the other faction in the region? Does the “no additional actions” refer only to optional actions? I believe that is the case and in retrospect, the abandoned armies should have (in this case) been eliminated through combat. I am interested in the opinions of fellow Revolution fans, especially those that have played the game already and maybe faced the same situation.

A second item that came up and wasn’t covered explicitly in the rules was New Unit placement in controlled provinces. In our specific situation, a faction controlled a province and held the card at the end of one turn. During the following turn, a second faction used Military Influence to eliminate the controlling faction from the province. The question then was, the first faction controls the province (as defined by holding the card) and is entitled to add new units without limit (other than available new units) but has no tokens in the province, which would contradict the rule of only placing new units where you already have a presence. We played it as though the first faction could place up to all his new units in the province, although he chose not to. The line of thinking was that they have control of the province and supporters in the province would organize to defend it, similar to the support boxes. Does anyone think this is incorrect? If so, please add your opinion and reasons to the thread for discussion.


Opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd say that for all intents and purposes the abandoned army isn't really "there", as it is turned over, thus it has no effect, it just cant be replaced.

Point two is interesting as well. I'd go with your interpretation on that, but I can certainly see the rationale for saying that you've lost your pieces, therefore you can't. Your support in that province was tenuous enough that an army was able to eliminate your supporters, therefore you are screwed.

I hope we get some answers. Very good questions. Time to scour the FAQ and CSW for some answers...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just posted this to CSW. We'll see if any answers come from there
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Ward wrote:
One item that is not covered clearly enough by the rules concerns Abandoned Armies [...] we were in agreement that the abandoned army remains in the control box.

Correct. As for the remainder of the questions surrounding abandoned armies: I play them as if they are still paid, with the exception that they cannot besiege, nor move, nor exert influence. Therefore they do count as full armies when the armies in a region are totalled for, for example, Water beggar actions; they can cause stand-offs; and they will eliminate the proper opposing army.

At first there seems to be no real reason to do anything but abandon the poor sods, but I found that in some cases you don't want to do that, as it forces neutral units into a (read: your) province. Neutrals can be used as a crowbar by other players to sneak more units in there. It's not a foolproof strategy, but sometimes, when someone is overstretching their capacity, adding neutrals can have undesired side effects you can easily do without.

Quote:
In our specific situation, a faction controlled a province and held the card at the end of one turn. During the following turn, a second faction used Military Influence to eliminate the controlling faction from the province. The question then was, the first faction controls the province (as defined by holding the card) and is entitled to add new units without limit (other than available new units) but has no tokens in the province, which would contradict the rule of only placing new units where you already have a presence.

It would seem to me that it is very hard (though not impossible) for a faction to get the province card, and have all of his units disappear through Military Influence on the next turn... But apart from the practicalities, I think there is no real contradiction in the rules, just the usual bad phrasing. You add where you have pieces. Then, and only then is it decided, based on the province card, how many units you are allowed to add.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cymric wrote:

At first there seems to be no real reason to do anything but abandon the poor sods, but I found that in some cases you don't want to do that, as it forces neutral units into a (read: your) province. Neutrals can be used as a crowbar by other players to sneak more units in there. It's not a foolproof strategy, but sometimes, when someone is overstretching their capacity, adding neutrals can have undesired side effects you can easily do without.


Could you explain what you mean by the line "Neutrals can be used as a crowbar". How can neutrals allow me to get my units in there?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guy Mersch
Belgium
Dilbeek
flag msg tools
Concerning the abandoned armies

Once abandoned the army is flipped to indicate that it cannot take further actions this turn.
What is understood by "actions"

Does it mean that this army can't laying siege, moving or using military influence but can take part in combat!
If it can take part in combat, from which faction is this army? The army isn't maintained anymore by any faction. Because of his ability to place or exchange neutral resources, can we consider it as an army from the "neutral" faction? If so what happens than during combat? On what position he has to be placed? On the right or left position towards Nobility?

What if the army is not considered neutral but from the original faction - although this faction doesn't support it anymore - Imagine a faction having two armies in the command block one abandoned and one sustained. What happens during fight, which army has to be sacrificed? The abandoned one or the sustained?
For the faction itself it is better to sacrifice the abandoned army because they loose it anyway by the end of the turn, but this seems not fair because they didn't want to pay for that army in the first place!!
So I think that abandoned armies take part in combat but will only be sacrificed if no other army is present of this faction.

Who can comment?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
guymer wrote:
Concerning the abandoned armies

Once abandoned the army is flipped to indicate that it cannot take further actions this turn.
What is understood by "actions"

Does it mean that this army can't laying siege, moving or using military influence but can take part in combat!
If it can take part in combat, from which faction is this army? The army isn't maintained anymore by any faction. Because of his ability to place or exchange neutral resources, can we consider it as an army from the "neutral" faction? If so what happens than during combat? On what position he has to be placed? On the right or left position towards Nobility?

What if the army is not considered neutral but from the original faction - although this faction doesn't support it anymore - Imagine a faction having two armies in the command block one abandoned and one sustained. What happens during fight, which army has to be sacrificed? The abandoned one or the sustained?
For the faction itself it is better to sacrifice the abandoned army because they loose it anyway by the end of the turn, but this seems not fair because they didn't want to pay for that army in the first place!!
So I think that abandoned armies take part in combat but will only be sacrificed if no other army is present of this faction.

Who can comment?


Excellent question. I've discussed this with the developer and it was determined that the way the situation would be handled is that the armies would line up as normal and the 'rebel' armies would be placed adjacent to their former comrades to the side that will be eliminated first. Arguments could be made for making the rebels the first to be eliminated of all armies or the last standing, so it seems like a likely place for house rules. I'm not sure there is a clean answer.

Your suggestion is that they be placed adjacent to their former comrades, but to the protected side. That's only more 'fair' if the army was abandoned intentionally. What if it was not? Is it more 'fair' that a faction could only support one of the armies but would have to lose both? For that matter, would a faction ever abandon just one army in a region it still had armies in?

I may have to revisit this situation with the developer because another solution would be for all rebel armies in the region to line up at the extremes and on the side of their normal allegiance. Most of the time, this will result in the same as the determination that was made. The only exceptions would be the regions with more than 3 command blocks which might - although extremely unlikely - contain more than three different factions.

Regarding your first question, "actions" are the optional actions as you specified. Battles are not optional which is why the rebels fight.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No one can really comment unfortunately.

The one reference I recall from the FAQ basically suggests that after an army is abandoned, it can't do anything, and doesn't really have any further function until it is removed, (other than taking up space in the command block and "looting").
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Windopaene wrote:
The one reference I recall from the FAQ basically suggests that after an army is abandoned, it can't do anything, and doesn't really have any further function until it is removed, (other than taking up space in the command block and "looting").


I don't see this in Maarten's FAQ nor on the official Phalanx one. Is there another available? It is not addressed in the rules - which is surprising considering how often I've come across the situation - nor in available FAQ, so you can do what I did and ask the developer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ottevaere Wouter
Belgium
Vosselaar
Antwerpen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Concerning abandoned armies: I suggest you try to imagine the real (historic) situation.

An abandoned army was a (massive) group of mercenary soldiers who weren't paid by their hirer - in this case: Habsburghs, Catholics, Nobility, Burghers or Reformers. So they searched for food, money and all other stuff (to replace the unpaid salary) by looting towns and sacking farms and civilians.
So I think in the game an abandoned army remains in the Command Box but flipped on its non-active side. Such an abandoned army occupies a place in the Command Box untill the end of the turn. The abandoned army can't take further actions, such as siege, movement or military influence.
The abandoned army occupies a place in the Command Box, because (back to the historic situation) they're wandering through the region - they don't disappear. One can see abandoned armies as Neutral armies, like the Neutral Resource pieces. So they can be considered as an extra faction, who's opposite to all the other factions. The conflict phase can be solved as follows: first there's conflict between the (normal) factions' armies (Habsb, Catho, Nobil, Burgh and Reform) - if they are present! - and after the "factions conflict", there can be conflict between the remaining army (or armies) and the abandoned army (stand-off situation or destruction of abandoned army by two or more remaining armies - with the loss of one army together with the abandoned army).
Such a conflict phase order (first factions, then remaining faction against abandoned army) can be based on the facts that (1) opposing factions will always first seek each other for battle ('most opposing armies') and (2) remaining army (or armies) will then take action against a rebelling soldier force (=the abandoned army) in the region.
This way of conducting the abandoned army rules, can make a faction player fighting his own former troops. For example: a faction player has three armies in a region. For some reason he chooses to abandon one army. That army becomes a rebelling Neutral army and so it becomes an adversary to his own other two armies. It this case to two remaining armies will have to fight the abandoned one - result: the (abandoned) Neutral army and one of the remaining army destroy each other and both destroyed armies are taken from the board. Final result: the faction player has only one army left.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.