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Subject: Migration and Ships - again, unfortunately... rss

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S. R.
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It might have been debated before - at least in German forums it has. And it stands to reason that Migration is by far the most complicated aspect of the game. Maybe besides "Engaged/Non-Engaged".

I was, until a few minutes ago, completely sure I understood how migration worked. Now, I don't, anymore. Because what I have been told as being an explanation by the author makes absolutely no sense to me.

So let me explain the situation. You all will be able to relate to it, as it is literally about the example on page 11 of the rules.

It was my understanding that ships can form a convoy with ships of adjacent sectors, in order to transport meeples. That way, if I had a ship in a sector, and another ship in the next, I could migrate from one land mass to the other without problems.

It was also my understanding that ships could move, as part of the migration action, into an adjacent sector.

Finally, it was my understanding that ships could take meeples on as passengers in one sector, move to the next, and transport them to any landmass there.

Oh, and I forgot - it was also my understanding that a ship would act as a bridge between landmasses of their individual sector, if necessary.


This, then, would lead to the following understanding of the example (and I am referring to yellow only):
The two yellow meeples in the sector to the left (called sector 1 from here on) could have travelled to the other landmass in the sector without the ship being moved.
However, the player decided to embark them on the ship.
Now, the ship MOVES to the adjacent sector to the right (called sector 2).
The meeples could have disembarked there, but the player decided to embark yet another meeple.
Now, the ship is moved to the dividing line between this sector and the one to the right, in order to move the meeples from this ship to the one in the adjacent sector (called sector 3).
In sector 3, the ship does not move, and simply disembarks its passengers onto the landmass.

It was, therefore, my understanding that all yellow units had moved EXCEPT for the ship in sector 3!



Now, a presumed answer from the author (its kinda second-hand) leaves me totally rattled. In it, the author presumedly (I have to state it this way, as it IS second-hand) states that the first ship can be placed onto the dividing line between sector 2 and sector 3 WITHOUTH having used the movement it is able to do due to the Migration action.

This would, of course, mean that ships can distribute via not only their own, but also an adjacent sector. Which is a very strange notion. Why? Bear with me, as I state another example.

Consider the sea tile with the one island surrounded by water to be adjacent to six other tiles with landmasses. Consider also a ship in the middle of said starting tile.
This ship can now facilitate, if done correctly (and if enough meeples are present), movement via water from all the adjacent tiles to several other tiles (three, to be precise, as this is the maximum number of additional ships) WITHOUT having moved once.

To make it easier, consider again the example within the book. Only this time, imagine two meeples on the land mass of sector 2, and another sector 0 below sector one (where the red ship moves to) with a yellow ship.
AS THE YELLOW SHIP HAS NOT MOVED YET, nothing will prevent it from taking on the second meeple from the land mass of sector 2, and then being placed on the dividing line between sector 1 and sector 0. There, it could "hand over" the meeple to the ship in sector 0, which in turn could land the meeple on any shore of the sector.
Additionally, the first yellow ship, WHICHT STILL HAS NOT MOVED, could make one other such action, distributing yet more meeples to another adjacent tile with a yellow ship on it.
And afterwards, ALL ships could move.

Consider also a line of tiles, in which all ships are exactly two sectors apart. This way, four ships could help facilitate a movement of one meeple over the distance of EIGHT SECTORS!

And finally, if this interpretation WOULD be correct, then it would also mean that a meeple could use any ship in its own sector to move to any of the six adjacent sector tiles WITHOUT MOVING the ship, basically as a land bridge.



Now, I really hope that there is a misunderstanding underlying this interpretation. I really hope that the wording was incorrect, and that subsequently the last few paragraphs were plain wrong. And I really hope that my initial understanding is correct.

Because if not, then not only is the whole thing counter-intuitive, and unnecessarily overcomplicated and near-incomprehensible, but also I would have to ask why the heck did this totally screwed-up rule make it into the final version of the game. I'd have to ask what on earth the designer was thinking?
 
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Darrell Hanning
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The designer has a BGG account. Have you sent him an email, asking him for clarification?
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You've written a long post and there is a little misinterpretation: citizens do not "embark" ships. Instead the ships are placed to form a "path" for the citizens to travel on. I try to explain my point of view, which boils down to the following concept of a "transport location":

In order to transport citizens, the ship must (always) be placed to a "transport location" within the hex it is currently in. This is either the gap between two landmasses on a single hex (hex 2 in the example at page 11; the "bridge" as you called it) or the edge of the hex facing the next tile where the transport should lead to (it then connects two different tiles; this is called "sea convoy"). As long as every hex edge on the "transport path" has a convoy ship assigned (no matter to which of the two adjacent tiles the ship actually belongs) you are happy to migrate your citizens.

During migration a ship may be "placed to transport location" only once (regardless if this is a "bridge location" or a "sea convoy location"). This placing may happen either before or after the ship takes it's own migration.

So in the example with the island surrounded by Water, you may only use the ship to transport citizens to a land mass that is on the hex tile adjacent to the edge where you placed the ship.

I hope, I could make my point clear.

(edit: made first paragraph clearer to understand)
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S. R.
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No, I have not asked the author directly, because I didn't know he had an account, or his account name. And you are right pointing out that I could have, without going this way.

However, now it is kinda ridiculous to write the same content to the author. Also, this version is a bit more transparent, and maybe we could get it sorted out without the language-based misunderstandings that so often ensue...

Kyoren, we are basically on par, because you state "the tile the ship is on". Regardless of whether a ship can only transport once or several times, the bigger question is whether or not the ship can use more than one tile for this WiTHOUT moving.

Also, if a ship can transport meeples with it to another tile, "embarking" is the right word for it, actually. And I think, based on the example in the rulebook, that either meeples can be transported via ship movement, too - or that the whole affair is too complicated to even consider...


However, the "placed to a transport location only once" is not written down anywhere. And it is my understanding that citizens could very well be moved from one landmass to the next on the same tile (where the ship is in a "transport location" between the landmasses, so to speak) without the ship moving, and afterwards be placed on the dividing line between its tile and the next, to transport more citizens.

It is therefore my interpretation (and it would not be illogical) if a ship in one sector could act as bridge for multiple transports in multiple directions...
...its just one of two possibilities...
 
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Still I cannot follow your interpretation. I just compared the german and the englsh rules and I think, most of the confusion comes from the german rules being not as accurate as the english ones (unfortunately I don't understand french which would be the best rule source for this game).

A ship does not move with citizen aboard. The german rules "Ein Schiff kann einen oder mehrere Bürger ... transportieren" is misleading. Take a look at the english rules. There the rules say "A ship can help one or more citizens cross the sea". The english rules also state more clearly where to place a ship, namely "on the junction line between departure and arrival region" and this contradicts your interpretation that a ship in the middle of a tile my be used to transport citizens to multiple directions.

The essence is that ships form a virtual path to transport citizens. In order to form that path they must move to a spot that I call a "transport location" (the rules only say that you have to "place" the ships, either to the sea inlet between two land masses on the same hex or to the edge of the hex when connecting two regions - german rules call this "Schnittstelle").

At any time during migration, you may transport citizens along such a virtual path consisting only of ships that have been "placed for sea convoy".

You may move (migrate) a ship to an adjacent hex after it was part of a sea convoy, but you may not use it again for a sea convoy on this new hex, since therefore it must be "placed for sea convoy" again which is only allowed once.

When connecting two land masses for transport you "place the ship for sea convoy" in the sea inlet that separates the two lands, even if you do not need to physicallymove it (again, take a look at the english rules, german rules "Mitte einer Seeregion" are misleading again). The placing in order to form a sea convoy occurs implicitely and forbids being part of a sea convoy after migrating the ship itself.



 
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Okay, I have now read up on the rules, and the placement of ships and the subsequent transportation of meeples makes sense.

However, two things to your explanation:
1. Ships can move before and after participating in a convoy.

2. A convoy is NOT an aspect of ship movement, but an aspect of meeple movement. Therefore, the wording of the rule does NOT state that a ship can only be helping in one single convoy.

It states:
"To perform a convoy, place the ship participating in the convoy..."

There is no rule warding against the same ship being used in multiple convoys.
I can perform a convoy, and place the participating ship, from tile x. I can perform another convoy from tile x. It does not state that the participating ship in the second one must be different from the one in the first convoy.


Also, for a game that prides itself on thematic representation, how do meeples get from one ship to another? Do they swim via the free tile? That is what incidentally struck me as odd.

Okay.
I can understand now how migration works.
It just has to be determined, now, if a ship used in one convoy is excluded from any other convoy of the same migration action.
 
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I understood it exaxtly the same way Kyoren did.
 
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Dumon wrote:
1. Ships can move before and after participating in a convoy.


Not quite, before or after.

Dumon wrote:
2. A convoy is NOT an aspect of ship movement, but an aspect of meeple movement. Therefore, the wording of the rule does NOT state that a ship can only be helping in one single convoy.


I totally agree!

It is not literally in the rules but implied by the example on page 11 (imho): I'm sure a ship can be used in any sea convoy for which its "sea convoy placing" (which can occur only once during a single migration action) forms a valid path.

(edit: answer to point 1)
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Olivier D.
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Answer (in french) from the author himself.

Basically, yes, a ship may participate in any number of convoys during the action.
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Kyoren wrote:

Not quite, before or after.


Nitpicker!


Yes, that is what I meant. Bad wording on my side, this time.

Olivier, thank you. Unfortunately, I don't speak any French, so I can't read it up. But I'll take your word for it!
 
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Dumon wrote:
Nitpicker!


Not meant as an offense
I'm glad we figured it all out!
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Jupp, we did.

So, anyone want a copy of Archipelago...?
...I figured out I can't be bothered...
 
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Andy Palmer
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Wouldn't it be great if the designer made a video explaining the more fiddly rules?
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Yes, it would.
Or - hey, I got an idea. How about better rules?


One thing is still unclear to me, though.
Can you create a convoy out of one single ship? Granted, that is a weird question, but it means this:

If you put a ship on the divide between its hex and the one next to it, can meeples then move from the landmass in the ship with hex to a landmass on the hex without ship?

Meaning - does there need to be a ship for a meeple to reach land?
Granted, this is cannot be the case in a situation where several ships are used, as (in a long line of ships) there would be only one single space without a ship at most, anyways...
 
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Jimmy Okolica
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Dumon wrote:

Can you create a convoy out of one single ship? Granted, that is a weird question, but it means this:

If you put a ship on the divide between its hex and the one next to it, can meeples then move from the landmass in the ship with hex to a landmass on the hex without ship?


I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I believe this specific situation is illustrated.
 
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Nope, the example does not include this situation - only transportation via an empty hex towards a hex with a ship in it.

It would also be important for transportation with a longer chain, as the last hex could always be empty, too...
 
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Olivier D.
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Yes, it's exactly how it works. You need X-1 ships to convoy meeples through X hexes.


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Sorry for my "mistrust", but I was so sure I got it right - until I didn't...
...is this confirmed by the author, somewhere? Because this is not really deducible in the examples in the rulebook...
 
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Olivier D.
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Well actually it's deductible from the explanations.

If you can place a ship at the junction of 2 hexes when you decide to move a meeple, you may move said meeple from one hex to the other (the ship forms a bridge between the 2 hexes, regardless of which of the 2 hexes it is in).

Thus, in the example where the 2 meeples are convoyed through 3 hexes, those meeples could have stopped in the 2nd hex (which is free of ships).

 
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I understand where you are coming from, and regarding the one meeple that embarks on a journey where there is no ship, it seems likely.

However, it is not totally unquestionable, as the example only shows the situation of a three-hex transport, with a ship at the end...

I am more sceptical, because there are so many little details in this game, that this could be just one more. And since we will play it again, soon, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Nothing personal, though. I hope, you understand that...
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Sorry for reopening an old thread, but regarding this:
Kyoren wrote:
During migration a ship may be "placed to transport location" only once (regardless if this is a "bridge location" or a "sea convoy location").

What exactly is the basis for this answer? I've read the rules... carefully, and this thread... carefully, and don't see this supported in either. And it kinda matters.
 
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To be honest, I overlooked that one. And I also kinda recall it explained elsewhere that you can use it multiple times, for multiple transports, as long as it does not leave the hex (although you can do so in the new hex, again)...
 
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curtc wrote:

Kyoren wrote:
During migration a ship may be "placed to transport location" only once (regardless if this is a "bridge location" or a "sea convoy location").

What exactly is the basis for this answer? I've read the rules... carefully, and this thread... carefully, and don't see this supported in either. And it kinda matters.

It's based on the rules page 11 and some answers Christophe Boelinger gave in different threads here on BGG. Please note that the terms in quotation marks are my own words trying to describe the conceptual idea behind. Not being a native speaker I must admit that perhaps they caused more confusion than being of help
 
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Curt Carpenter
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I'm not confused by the terms you put in quotes. I understand what you mean. But the English rules definitely don't say that each ship cannot convoy using different edges in a single migration action. I have read all threads (prior to this one--starting from the beginning and working my way forward), and I don't recall seeing anything that specifies the restriction you mention. It's possible I missed it, but I'd like to see something authoritative, if possible, rather than propagating rumors.
 
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curtc wrote:
... But the English rules definitely don't say that each ship cannot convoy using different edges in a single migration action. ... It's possible I missed it, but I'd like to see something authoritative, if possible, rather than propagating rumors.


I looked up the english rules and I think your point is covered by the small sentence "The ship can perform its own migration before or after the sea convoy". Note the singular at "the sea convoy". This implies that a ship can only be used at one sea convoy (that means being placed at one edge or sea inlet as the sentence before tells us).
 
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