Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » General

Subject: Difficulty is low for full co-op rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
J P
United States
San Leandro
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I generally do not mind playing the game competitively, I think I prefer co-op. Unfortunately, in a full-coop mode the game seems too easy (I grant I was only playing 2p for most of the games). We played our first game with the beginner's setup, followed by a solo game with Magneto (legacy virus), a 2p with Loki (bank robbery), a 2p game with Loki AND Red Skull (we were screwing around) and two 3p with Dr. Doom (killbots and civil war). With the exception of the Dr. Doom scenario we've never come close to losing in any of our games- and we've never yet lost ourselves.

I like winning as much as the next guy, but there's less fun if there's less challenge. In the Loki game we did maximum difficulty (3 extra twist cards and +5). In the subsequent game we added another mastermind and kept the base difficulty. This was only slightly harder, despite the fact that we had two different master strike penalties every time one of the master strike cards came up.

I'm not writing to complain (I really enjoy the game as is)as much as I'm asking for some good variants to raise difficulty for pure co-op,
or even an official one from the designer (kudos on your game, by the way!) I've seen two ideas I'm looking to try out - one that a user put up based on changing situations every time a mastermind tactic card is taken, and one that utilizes the points from enemies to kill a mastermind boss.

Another idea I was tossing around was either to play two cards from the villain deck (instead of one) per turn) OR simply taking out a henchmen/villain group (thus thinning the deck some amount) OR for the more thematic gamers amongst us, simply putting in one of each villain from each group.

Anyone else with ideas please come forward! If you disagree with me on difficulty please let me know, as I'm always willing to think I played wrongly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O P
msg tools
mb
The simplest thing is probably to add more twists and raise the mastermind's attack further. I'm sure it will be much harder with +8 twists and +10 attack, but there are probably more interesting ways to play it (as you already mentioned).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edwin Santoni
United States
Davie
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmb
Our first 5 player me using the rulebooks starter set up, and we almost lost by one twist, so I think the difficulty will always be pretty random depending on how your hero set up ends up being and general luck. We got a bunch of master strikes early on which really slowed us down and villains also kept KO'ing stuff from our hands so the twists added up. And Red Skull is the easiest so we imagine it's going to get tougher.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ummm... a few of these types of comments starting to appear, which is a little "worrying"

I can't really comment one way or the other until my copy arrives, but it did strike me that Legendary feels like a pretty easy system to "mess around" with even in its base configuration. Though not saying that any variants might lead to increased difficultly.

Obvious variant targets would be able to tweak any of the draw deck/set up configurations to increase difficulty (say limited heroes, more difficult villians, less henchmen etc). What about limiting Heroes to one particular group type?

But there are things in the gameplay itself.that I think I might look to challenge myself on. Eg. why are the rules were doing certain things and where are the "stress" points, and look to increase those. e.g.

Someone had mentioned villians "escaping" earlier than at the bridge.

What about the HQ. Play the game with less than 5 available heroes? What about if the HQ doesn't immediately refresh with Heroes? Delayed by one or more turns, or a complete round?

Not sure if these help as I can't try these out but perhaps might provide some food for thought for others in the meantime.











 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O P
msg tools
mb
PanzerKraken wrote:
Our first 5 player me using the rulebooks starter set up, and we almost lost by one twist, so I think the difficulty will always be pretty random depending on how your hero set up ends up being and general luck. We got a bunch of master strikes early on which really slowed us down and villains also kept KO'ing stuff from our hands so the twists added up. And Red Skull is the easiest so we imagine it's going to get tougher.


It seems that the more players there are, the harder the game is. So take that in consideration as well
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Yoder
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Yeah, the game is very easy coop. Though like you, we've only played 2 player so far, so it seems more players would change that, but not sure. We upped the schemes and the mastermind's health as well, but seems like it'd be nice to do something more than just increase a couple of numbers.

I still would prefer a penalty (rather than reward) for when a villain escapes. (Like gain a -1 recruit card in your play deck, or increase the mastermind's health by 1 or 2?) Part me would like having to put certain defeated villains in my play deck to slow it down, that can maybe act as a +1 recruit... or something. I just know when I have a very lean deck of 10-15 heroes and no Shield officers, very little can stand in my way. Also, not sure if a penalty when fighting the Mastermind would break the game or not as it does give incentive to fight him rather than villains.

Regardless, we've had fun, but only because we play against each other, not the game, since that has rarely been a challenge. But again, that's with 2 players. (I think in 20 games, we've only lost 4 times, and that was after upping the stats, plus 2 of those were because 1 of us knew he wasn't going to win, so he'd sabotage the game to prevent the other guy from winning. Evil, yes... but the Skrulls made us do it. )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GreatOldOne wrote:
The simplest thing is probably to add more twists and raise the mastermind's attack further. I'm sure it will be much harder with +8 twists and +10 attack, but there are probably more interesting ways to play it (as you already mentioned).


I'm only up to about six plays now, but one thing I've noticed is that the effectiveness of your deck is often rather punctuated. Most of the game you can barely generate 5 attack. Then, at some point, everything sort of clicks and your generating 10+ attack every other turn. Its unsual for somebody to punch the mastermind without having 3 or more leftover. Point being that I'm not sure giving the mastermind a few extra hit points is really going to up the difficulty as your probably gitting your four combats done in the same time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O P
msg tools
mb
That's a good point Davy... So I guess the best solution is to make the early-mid game harder so that the tension is if you can get to that strong end game.

If we think about it that way, then maybe drawing 2 cards from the villain deck or raising the price of the HQ cards by a few points might be a good idea.

It's also possible to make a thematic harder variant that each player can only buy the cards of 1 hero or something like that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Egan
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Increasing the number of players does up the difficulty heavily. You are simply just seeing more of the Villian deck before your own deck gets a chance to really click.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve W
Canada
flag msg tools
Maybe try starting with a non-empty City track? Like during setup, draw out some Villains/Henchmen to start out the track before you mix in the Twists and Master Strikes?

Not quite sure how to handle Ambush effects, but it could help reduce the "safe" period at the start of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael A

California
msg tools
How about having to KO a hero from you deck and HQ if a villain escapes, eg.. a Hand Ninja Escapes the city, you must KO a hero of equal or higher value from the HQ and each players hand. So in the hand Ninja example you KO a hero of 3 or more from the HQ and each players hand. That will certainly make you take out those villains, and if thats not enough up the amount required to kill each villain. So many ways to make this a challenge and not effect game play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Yoder
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

The tricky thing is, we've had early games, due to card draws, where villains are escaping left and right, and we simply don't have the fire power to fight any of them, except the henchmen. So until we can get any footing, there's nothing we can do, causing 4-6 heroes to get KO'ed from the HQ.

So as much as I think escaping villains should hurt rather than help (thematically speaking), I question how it would affect some game balance, because in some situations, if the penalty is too extreme, then you'd never get your footing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JYoder wrote:

The tricky thing is, we've had early games, due to card draws, where villains are escaping left and right, and we simply don't have the fire power to fight any of them, except the henchmen. So until we can get any footing, there's nothing we can do, causing 4-6 heroes to get KO'ed from the HQ.

So as much as I think escaping villains should hurt rather than help (thematically speaking), I question how it would affect some game balance, because in some situations, if the penalty is too extreme, then you'd never get your footing.


I suppose you could look to some sort of ratcheted effect, first few get through "cheaply" but the penalty ramps considerably up after that.

Could there be some link to how many tactic's cards you've dealt with i.e the more times you've fought the mastermind the higher the penalty for escapees.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J P
United States
San Leandro
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played 3 solo games last night - twice on the dark portals scheme and once on the midtown bank robbery scheme. The two are VASTLY different in difficulty.

In the first game I had 3 heroes (Capt America, Iron Man, and Emma Frost), all of which have very little synergy. I lost without ever getting to Loki.

In the second game I chose 3 heroes that I KNEW would have plenty of synergy (Hulk, Wolverine, Rogue) - and I barely one with one scheme twist left.

In the third (midtown bank robbery) Loki is now robbing a bank(and I have Wolverine, Rogue, and Gambit) and he did not even come close.

As a solo game, playing with the Legacy Virus or Dark Portals is about where I want the difficulty to be at in full co-op. The games I want (regardless of scheme) need to feel like those.

In which case I'm guessing the card ratios would be the most important part. In a solo game, there is 1 villain group, 3 cards from a henchman group, 1 master strike, 1 bystander, and the pre-req scheme twists. This means that the entire villain deck is a base 16 cards plus the scheme twists (this would be for the Legacy Virus and Dark Portals only) - and the scheme twist cards are therefore about 1/3 of the deck.

In a 2 player game, there are 2 villain groups (22 cards), 1 henchman group (10 cards), 5 master strike(s), 2 bystanders, and the scheme twists: 46 cards total. The scheme twist cards are now 3/20 of the deck. If the prereq to losing is drawing the last twist, then generally speaking 2p will be a lot easier to win than 1p. Or simply drawing 2 cards per turn might work as well...

As for escaping villains - I would think that it helps more often than not to KO things from your hand, so I'm against that. It's a pity there aren't a steady supply of shield agents, since I think it'd be more harmful to clog up one's deck with lowbies laugh Maybe wounds instead?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Geuss
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmb
I think I'll up the difficulty by drinking copious amounts of alcohol. devil It may take a few tries to decide on just how much of a "penalty" we will need.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E Reddick
msg tools
I'm trying the following setup to make each game more difficult:

For 2 players, use 3 heroes, and start with 4 henchmen in the city. 3 players: 4 heroes, 3 henchmen. 4 players: 5 heroes, 2 henchmen. 5 players: 6 heroes, 1 henchman. Ignore the Ambush when putting henchmen in the city during setup. Now villains threaten to escape earlier and it's more likely to draw worse cards from the villain deck.

On a master strike: Each player gets a wound and then follow the instructions on the mastermind card. Master strikes should (almost) always be really bad, but of course Captain America has his diving block.

When a villain escapes: KO heroes such that the sum of the cost of the KO'd heroes is greater than or equal to the strength of the villain. Otherwise, KO'ing a hero doesn't really change anything.

When hitting the mastermind: The player that attacks gains a wound and then resolves the tactic card. Attacking the mastermind should have a consequence.

I tried this with 3 players using Cap, Iron Man, Spidey, and Cyclops against Loki, Enemies of Asgard, Hydra, Skrulls, Sentinels and the Dark Portal scheme. We lost decisively, but I think we didn't draft heroes effectively. We were able to only allow 2 villains and 0 bystanders to escape, but struggled to build up enough attack to hit Loki and his 11 strength. That was our first time playing with Iron Man, Spidey, and Cyclops together- I think we'll do MUCH better a second time. But I like for the toughest challenge a game has to offer to be REALLY hard.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.