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Subject: 2012 Golden Geek Winners = Euro Gamers Days Are Numbered on BGG rss

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Tony W
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With Eclipse receiving GOTY and Best Strategy Game, and King of Tokyo claiming Best Children's, Party, and Family Game, it seems like the majority of the voters now favor "Ameritrash" style over Euro. Has the tide turned in the demographics/taste of BGG users?
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Daniel Kearns
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(actually I assumed Eclipse was a euro....)
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Paul DeStefano
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Well, it's about time.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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I assumed Eclipse is an Amerigame/Eurotrash game....best of both worlds....

 
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Enrico Viglino
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Pfft...euro principles have intermingled with everything else.

Hybrids are the rage recently. These things will fluctuate.
I hope the more so, once more eurogamers begin to look at the
other side of the hybrids, and seeing what intuitive and evocative
designs were there before.
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Luke Morris
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Euro and Ameri games have had dirty, filthy sex and have produced an adorable hybrid child. Wargames have also gotten on board with this smut too.

Games like Eclipse, Dominant Species, Mage Knight, Earth Reborn etc etc etc have joyfully pulled chunks from the different spheres and shoved them together into a more modern package.

Great themes in "Eurogames", "Wargames" with great art, "Ameritrash" with more "elegant" strategies....

It's brilliant.


The sooner we stop fighting for our chosen "sides" and just enjoy the bounty, the better.
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Enrico Viglino
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HamsterOfFury wrote:
"Wargames" with great art


I don't mind this - just let them treat the subject matter
with respect, and not reduce them to 'theme'.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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The best games are those where the designer does not draw lines, as to what he or she can or cannot do, can or cannot include.

Every game is a hybrid of ideas of the designer's, and ideas that designer has seen before. There is no "purity" of genre or design category - that's all an illusion.

And some ideas work, and some don't. Time will tell. Eclipse works, and how anybody could not see that it's a hybrid beats me.
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Daniel Kearns
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DarrellKH wrote:

Every game is a hybrid of ideas of the designer's, and ideas that designer has seen before. There is no "purity" of genre or design category - that's all an illusion.


Pretty good illusion in so much as we (BGG) seem to fight over it without end.

Besides, as a red-blooded American, I like things black and white so I can pick a side, revile the other, and not think about it anymore.
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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calandale wrote:
HamsterOfFury wrote:
"Wargames" with great art


I don't mind this - just let them treat the subject matter
with respect, and not reduce them to 'theme'.

What do you mean by this? What would be an example of a game that tries to be a wargame but doesn't respect the subject matter?
 
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CHAPEL
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Hey, as long as CCG's don't make a comeback on BGG, then I am OK with Hybrids, AT, Euros...I may even accept 18xx making a comeback, but when MtG takes over, I am out!
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Scott Hill
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MWChapel wrote:
Hey, as long as CCG's don't make a comeback on BGG, then I am OK with Hybrids, AT, Euros...I may even accept 18xx making a comeback, but when MtG takes over, I am out!


How about Magic: The Zombie Settlers of Passchendaele?
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iGotGame wrote:
With Eclipse receiving GOTY and Best Strategy Game, and King of Tokyo claiming Best Children's, Party, and Family Game, it seems like the majority of the voters now favor "Ameritrash" style over Euro. Has the tide turned in the demographics/taste of BGG users?


No, it's just that American designers have learned how to make better games.

It took them a while but they got there...

devil
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Enrico Viglino
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Smoo wrote:
calandale wrote:
HamsterOfFury wrote:
"Wargames" with great art


I don't mind this - just let them treat the subject matter
with respect, and not reduce them to 'theme'.

What do you mean by this? What would be an example of a game that tries to be a wargame but doesn't respect the subject matter?


I dunno how much it 'tries' but one very good example would
be Struggle of Empires. Also things like History of the World.
I pretty much will stay away from modern weuros, because many
popular military themed games of the past didn't seriously attempt
to simulate history - I can't much imagine that those more devoted
to 'cool mechanics' and gameplay than was the case back then, would
be likely to do a decent job. Hell, even many CDGs seem to not take
their subject matter seriously - again, focusing more on being
games than giving a person choices that a reasonable commander would
face.
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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calandale wrote:
I dunno how much it 'tries' but one very good example would
be Struggle of Empires. Also things like History of the World.
I pretty much will stay away from modern weuros, because many
popular military themed games of the past didn't seriously attempt
to simulate history - I can't much imagine that those more devoted
to 'cool mechanics' and gameplay than was the case back then, would
be likely to do a decent job. Hell, even many CDGs seem to not take
their subject matter seriously - again, focusing more on being
games than giving a person choices that a reasonable commander would
face.

Hmm. Is it possible to take the subject matter seriously while still allowing for 'alternate endings'? That strikes me as one of the liberties that CDGs take in that they provide ways to make events occur that didn't historically occur, but could have under different circumstances.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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Smoo wrote:

Hmm. Is it possible to take the subject matter seriously while still allowing for 'alternate endings'? That strikes me as one of the liberties that CDGs take in that they provide ways to make events occur that didn't historically occur, but could have under different circumstances.


Oh certainly. But, as an example, allowing players to choose
between moving forces or affecting the weather is just goofiness.

Given that all the leaders DON'T normally know the results ahead of
time, I would even contend that a game which is mostly a 'sure thing',
wherein the players are only trying to improve on the foreordained
outcome are unrealistic - and maybe not taking the subject matter
seriously. This is one thing I really like about say, GBoH - it just
allows for unbalanced scenarios, and lets the players try and win
them as the commanders on the field would see it.
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Christopher Scatliff
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calandale wrote:
But, as an example, allowing players to choose
between moving forces or affecting the weather is just goofiness.

I see. So that would extend to, say, a CDG card like "Stormy Seas" or something which forces boats back to port or whatnot. Yes?

Quote:
I would even contend that a game which is mostly a 'sure thing',
wherein the players are only trying to improve on the foreordained
outcome are unrealistic - and maybe not taking the subject matter
seriously.

Have you played Mark Herman's For the People? It seems to be built around the premise that the Union would always win, and the Confederate player is simply required to hold out as long or longer than they did historically in order to win the game.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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Smoo wrote:

Have you played Mark Herman's For the People? It seems to be built around the premise that the Union would always win, and the Confederate player is simply required to hold out as long or longer than they did historically in order to win the game.


Yes. And The Civil War which does so as well.
There is something unrealistic about this. I think I'm
stretching when I say that is 'not taking the subject seriously'
though - it's missing ONE important aspect; one which may be impossible
whilst maintaining the other aspects of the reality.

Both games do manage to allow for a victory by defeating Lincoln's
reelection though. Given McClellan's stance, that is reasonable.
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Johan Haglert
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iGotGame wrote:
With Eclipse receiving GOTY and Best Strategy Game, and King of Tokyo claiming Best Children's, Party, and Family Game, it seems like the majority of the voters now favor "Ameritrash" style over Euro. Has the tide turned in the demographics/taste of BGG users?
Isn't Eclipse a eurogame?

I want things without luck but with variation. The extremes often lack either.
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Joel Eddy
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@OP

No. Last year was weak for Euros. This year is much much better.
 
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Stew Woods
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aliquis wrote:
iGotGame wrote:
With Eclipse receiving GOTY and Best Strategy Game, and King of Tokyo claiming Best Children's, Party, and Family Game, it seems like the majority of the voters now favor "Ameritrash" style over Euro. Has the tide turned in the demographics/taste of BGG users?
Isn't Eclipse a eurogame?

I want things without luck but with variation. The extremes often lack either.


let's try a litmus test:

"The game ends after the 9th round. The player with the most Victory Points is the winner."

What? You don't win by blowing everyone else up?

Smells like Euro spirit...
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Enrico Viglino
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lokides wrote:


let's try a litmus test:

"The game ends after the 9th round. The player with the most Victory Points is the winner."


A very high proportion of wargames determine victory this way....whistle
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Stew Woods
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calandale wrote:


A very high proportion of wargames determine victory this way....whistle


True, but Wargames didn't spend the last decade dominating the US hobby gaming market... whistle

Edit: And Calandale, we must stop meeting like this ninja
 
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Darrell Hanning
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calandale wrote:
Smoo wrote:
calandale wrote:
HamsterOfFury wrote:
"Wargames" with great art


I don't mind this - just let them treat the subject matter
with respect, and not reduce them to 'theme'.

What do you mean by this? What would be an example of a game that tries to be a wargame but doesn't respect the subject matter?


I dunno how much it 'tries' but one very good example would
be Struggle of Empires. Also things like History of the World.


I think the timpani got on the wrong sheet of music - neither of those games is a wargame. Any attempt to consider them as such (by means of the fictional "weuro", or by other means) is simply an all-thumbs attempt to hammer a square peg into a hexagonal hole.
 
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Steve Duff
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iGotGame wrote:
With Eclipse receiving GOTY and Best Strategy Game, and King of Tokyo claiming Best Children's, Party, and Family Game, it seems like the majority of the voters now favor "Ameritrash" style over Euro. Has the tide turned in the demographics/taste of BGG users?


I've been saying it for a while, it's definitely changed. The pure euro gamer on BGG is definitely a minority now. At least when it comes to visible contributions like reviews, podcasts, posting, voting, etc.

A great euro takes a year or more to reach the top of the rankings here, a great thematic game often climbs in just a few months. Compare Eclipse, Mage Knight, Netrunner with Trajan, Castles of Burgundy etc.

My other theory is that thematic gamers are more likely to award the extreme ratings. "Hell yeah that was awesome" = 10, "Man that sucked" = 1. Eurogamers seem to be much more conservative and analytic with their ratings. "Well, that was excellent, I'll give it an 8.7, because it's not quite as good as Caylus, but it's definitely better than Stone Age which I give an 8.4". A bad game might get a 3 or a 4. They squeeze their ratings into a tighter band.

Top euros have peaks at 8, with large dropoffs to the 9s and again down to the 10s. Top thematic games have very little dropoff, sometimes not even at all (currently Netrunner has more 10s than 9s).
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