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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Lack of lethality rss

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Thiago Aranha
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If there's one thing that bothers me a bit about this game, it's the overall lack of lethality in the attacks. Time and time again you line up the perfect shot right in your opponent's rear and you end up dealing no damage. The problem is that the attack and defense rolls are pretty much mirrors of each other. The dice themselves have an equal amount of hits and evades, the number of dice rolled are mostly pretty balanced on both sides, and the actions are evenly distributed between attack and defense (focus aids both, evade aids defense, target lock aids attack).

The net result of all this is that it's just very likely that your attack won't deal any damage unless you're very lucky or you're attacking a Y-Wing (which has hull and shield to spare).

This can be a bit frustrating at times, and I feel it often makes the match drag unnecessarily. Am I the only one who sees this as the minor flaw in an otherwise great game? Does anybody have any suggestions to remedy that?
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Marvin Gange
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I must admit that I have experienced the same thing. Now, another system I love playing involving WW1 and WW2 aerial warfare gives bonuses to attacks on the 'tail'.

Perhaps an extra red dice for an attack within the rear 60 degrees? I might dust off my protractor and see if that works a little better tonight when the geeks pop by.
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tom brown
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I agree with you if you are fighting 1 on 1. you ned to gang up on a target, take out its evade and focus tokens, and then go in there with an x wing at range 1 and 1 shot that tie fighter. I find that its not very often an attack does no damage whatsoever.
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Thiago Aranha
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One thing I was thinking that could work is: Critical hits cannot be cancelled, they are a guaranteed hit. The most you can do is spend an Evade to turn that Critical into a normal Hit, but that Hit is going to damage you.
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Paul DeStefano
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Looks like the movies to me. Dozens of shots fired before a kill.
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Thiago Aranha
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I'm not questioning the realism or movie translation aspect of it. My issue is with the gameplay. I'm often seeing players frustrated that their perfectly executed attack maneuver often yields no damage at all. The system seems to a bit too balanced, and I think it should actually favour the attacker.
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Scott M.
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Geosphere wrote:
Looks like the movies to me. Dozens of shots fired before a kill.

+1


I guess nobody here has played 40k before...

"ok...42 attacks... 26 hits.. 12 wounds.. 10 armor saves... 2 kills??? WTF!~"
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Charlie Theel
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There are not an equal number of evades and hits on the defense/attack dice - you're forgetting about the critical. There are 3 total hits on the attack dice and 2 total evades on the defense dice. This is not an insignificant difference when talking about 6-sided dice. However, when ships take a minimum of 3 hits to bring down, that difference is minimized.

One thing that really bothers me is how weak Proton Torpedos are.
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Dave Weiss
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I find the ships to be fragile enough the way they are. Every match results in 2+ ships getting blown up in a single attack due to a lucky roll.

I guess it comes down to what you are looking for from the gameplay. There are already plenty of advantages to being behind a target, and proper team and ability use can really tip the scales.
 
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Eric B.
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Loophole Master wrote:
I'm not questioning the realism or movie translation aspect of it. My issue is with the gameplay. I'm often seeing players frustrated that their perfectly executed attack maneuver often yields no damage at all. The system seems to a bit too balanced, and I think it should actually favour the attacker.


Well, there is a slight advantage to the attacker since the EVADE and HIT/CRIT symbol totals are not equal:
Green Die: 3/8 EVADE
Red Die: 4/8 HITorCRIT


It would add an interesting dimension to the game if everyone had a default "Backstabber" rule: "Whenever a ship is attacking and is not in the firing arc of its target it gets +1 Red Die" (and Backstabber therefore got +2).

But as it stands, there's little need to worry about getting behind or flanking enemies. Being outside a target's arc is great for not taking return fire, but a lot of times it's simply not possible or worth the time/investment (especially with Koigran turns in the mix).

Honestly, what would probably change gameplay more than anything and what would really start to reward well executed attacks and tailing would be removing Koigran turns from the game (thought that would almost certainly make the game even longer, not shorter).
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Guido Gloor
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You complain about a lack of lethality, while others complain about "ships are dead much faster than in some other game". A typical case of "can't please everyone".
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Thiago Aranha
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Sure, I'm not saying the game is wrong, only that me and my gaming group have been bothered a bit by this lack of lethality.

I agree that the Backstabber rule could very well have been part of the core rules for all ships. Or better yet, the ships could have a "rear arc" that would grant a bonus if you attacked from it.

I haven't played the game enough to declare that I'm house ruling anything yet, but I just wanted to see if other people felt the same way as I.
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Marcel van der pol
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Quote:
"ok...42 attacks... 26 hits.. 12 wounds.. 10 armor saves... 2 kills??? WTF!~"


Playing Imperial Guard or Orks will teach you one thing: everything counts in large amounts!

So yes, I have plenty and often with single TIE-Fighters that I line up the perfect shot but deal no damage. However, if you line up that perfect shot with 3 or 4 TIE-Fighters in one turn, there is a great chance that you WILL deal damage. One-Shotting an X-Wing: probably not.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I've found the opposite. Many times what seems like a 'safe' defensive posture ends up in a dead ship. How fickle the dice are at times...

-shnar
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Donnie Clark
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If your group is universally frustrated with it, no shame in house-ruling it.
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O B
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One of the things I appreciate about the game is how hits are more common than evades. It's nice bit of game design. You don't want details to be 'realistic', you want the arc of the game to be 'plausible', while staying fast and light and that means eliminating turtling strategies and rewarding agressive attackers.

RogueThirteen wrote:

It would add an interesting dimension to the game if everyone had a default "Backstabber" rule: "Whenever a ship is attacking and is not in the firing arc of its target it gets +1 Red Die" (and Backstabber therefore got +2).


I think that would really be too much. A bonus like negating the first evade if a 'tailing' ship was within the 'tailing arc' (not the same as Back Stabber, but more like the inverse of the firing arc) could promote tailing without throwing off the balance too dramatically.

However I'm not convinced lots of tailing would add much to the game. My recollection of playing WoW was that it was very hard (slow and time consuming) to properly tail an enemy.
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Noshrok Grimskull
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atraangelis wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Looks like the movies to me. Dozens of shots fired before a kill.

+1


I guess nobody here has played 40k before...

"ok...42 attacks... 26 hits.. 12 wounds.. 10 armor saves... 2 kills??? WTF!~"

I have.
With Orkz. Versus Marines and Terminators.
Compared to that, X-Wing is pretty deadly!
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Nico
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Loophole Master wrote:
One thing I was thinking that could work is: Critical hits cannot be cancelled, they are a guaranteed hit. The most you can do is spend an Evade to turn that Critical into a normal Hit, but that Hit is going to damage you.


Which would hurt Rebels more than Imperials as each Rebel fighter has shields, while the Empire only has the much less common TIE Advanced that comes with that benefit.

I have often cancelled out Crits with my shields and never managed to score a Crit on a simple TIE when playing the Rebels.

At our table, those dice rolls that would score a Crit simply tend to blow up the target in the same turn that would deal them a critical hit.

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Thiago Aranha
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With that house rule, shields would certainly still cancel damage. I was only referring to evade actions not cancelling critical hits.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Yeah, you're all probably right. Me and my group just need to get used to the rythm of this game, and adopt tactics like swarming a single enemy to guarantee a kill.
 
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David Pontier
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I don't see this as much. I agree that if you attack at range two with no bonuses, you won't do much damage because of the balance of the game. This swings the advantage to the player who uses the best strategy.

My brother got frustrated by this because he had three TIEs focused on my X-wing and only did one damage. The problem is that two of his three TIEs had stress tokens, so they had no focus and they were all at range 2. If you can get an X-wing at range one with a target lock and a focus, you can do some serious damage against a TIE. Likewise if you get Mauler Mithil or Backstabber behind someone at Range 1 and have Howlrunner nearby, you will massively hurt an X-wing.

You need to use these combos. With them, you can one-shot a TIE, or take down an X-wing with two shots. This negates a lot of the luck in the game and swings it in the favor of the player with better strategy.
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Dave Smith
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Loophole -seems like you have been playing dust Tactics to long and expect every unit to die quick The game plays perfect for me needing several shots before a ship is downed, nothing wrong with missing completely every now and then and games are pretty short anyway, making attacks more powerful will just result in quick kills and a very quick game.
 
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Christopher O
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Just a note - some people over look small aspects of the rules - you saw/read that "regular" damage results must be cancelled before "critical damage" results, right? I believe that about a quarter to a third of the critical damage cards result in two points of damage instead of one.

Also that an extra attack die is rolled at range 1?

I don't mean to insult - some people read the rules but miss small (or large) details which can have a dramatic impact. For example, I recall one person playing Pandemic and thinking it was broken, but then it was pointed out that the outbreak location cards were put back on top of that draw deck, instead of at the bottom or shuffled into the draw deck. That seemingly minor difference in the way cards were drawn (well, it's major, but it's quite minor in terms of physically putting them in one place vs. another) makes a huge difference in the way the game plays.

Are most of your attacks occurring at range 2 or range 3, by chance? Is it possible that your gaming group isn't specifically trying to get as close as possible?

I assume you know about both those rules and the desirability of firing at close range, but they occur to me as something that might be overlooked, which would result in less lethal play.
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Thiago Aranha
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No insult taken, Kozure, but I don't believe I'm overlooking any rule. Critical Hits could be deadly, but in my games they've been a very rare occurance. It really doesn't matter if you score a hit or a crit, when they all get canceled by evades anyway.

But as I said before, it might just be the case that we're not playing the aggressive aspects of the game to their full potential.

Major Mishap, you know me too well, sir. Yeah, I'm used to the lethality of Dust, but I only brought this up here because every single person I played with (including non-Dust players) mentioned this same issue.
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Three Headed Monkey
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The problem is that if ships die too easily it becomes less about tactics and more about who shoots first.

I've had plenty of games where nothing seems to happen in the combat phase, but I have also noticed that given the right tactics and occasional good luck, a ship can go down very quickly.

So far I haven't had a single game where good defence die rolls lasted for long.
 
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