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Subject: Independent Media Reporting rss

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Ken
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jimbrax wrote:
Is there such a thing?


Yes and no. Bias is inevitable. I want news sources that recognize their bias and undertake efforts to limit its impact. The BBC, the Economist, some of the news (not talk) programs on NPR, etc. Combine a good number of those and you can get a pretty interesting view of things.

Quote:
The BBC articles seemed to be biased towards the Gazan side, always reporting on how many civilians had been killed by Israeli rockets that day and skipping or glossing over the Hamas rocket launches going the other way.


You do realize that the casualties from the Hamas rockets aren't nearly as high as the casualties going the other way, right? Various sources will point to the last Israeli death from Hamas rockets occurring in late 2011 until the rocket fire was stepped up in response to the Israeli action in Gaza.

Before anyone jumps on my case - this is absolutely not some statement condoning attacks by one side while condemning another. It's just a note that it is actually possible to discuss casualties in an unbiased way that talk far more about them on one side than the other. Think about the first Gulf War and the balance of casualties there, then think about how that was/could be reported.

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It made me realise that the person was correct and from what I can see there isn't any real impartiality in the BBC.


Then I'd suggest you both spend some more time looking for the facts. What would demonstrate real bias is if the BBC articles discussing casualties drew conclusions on actions to take which, excluding their op-ed pieces, they generally don't. An unbiased presentation of the facts can (and more than sometimes does) result in coverage that disproportionately discusses impacts on one side of a conflict more than another.

Now if you can point to BBC reporting (not op-ed) that says "The Palestinian casualties demonstrate the moral bankruptcy of Israel..." or something similar, you might have a case. I don't think you'll find it.
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Boaty McBoatface
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20336811, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20413625 Not seeing a lot of bias here. an alternative view of the BBC's bias http://www.newstatesman.com/media/broadcast/2012/11/gaza-sav....
 
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.
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Ken
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jimbrax wrote:
OK, apart from the BBC, what other websites do people like to use for reading about world affairs? (Not specifically Israel.)


The Economist, the NYT, the WSJ, "All Things Considered" (NPR show), the AP. I'll occasionally throw in some al Jazeera, Le Monde, or other foreign-language news agencies to mix things up.

But I don't think you get to "lack of bias" through any single source. You get to it through a diversity of sources. Then you can cross-reference against one another and build your own opinion.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.
So are you saying that those two BC stories are not real?
 
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Moshe Callen
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Did I say that? If I were saying that, you'd not have to guess. Please stop trying to put mouths in my mouth every time you don't get the point of a post-- which is usually.
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whac3 wrote:
Did I say that? If I were saying that, you'd not have to guess. Please stop trying to put mouths in my mouth every time you don't get the point of a post-- which is usually.
So you are provided with stores that clearly report the rocket attacks and Israel casualties, yet you claim the BBC is biased because it reports these things. So if that is not what you are saying how is t biased, give us some examples of this biased reporting.
 
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Moshe Callen
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I clearly said I wasn't getting into the nitty-gritty of the stories because I've been there, done that but I completely agree with the OP about a bias in how things are worded, reported, etc by the BBC. What part of that don't you get?
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.


Interestingly enough, I read those stories from the BBC end-to-end and reach the exact opposite conclusion - that they aren't biased. They present both sides, discuss actions with a very neutral tone, and advocate for nothing. What about the stories strikes you as demonstrating bias?
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perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.


Interestingly enough, I read those stories from the BBC end-to-end and reach the exact opposite conclusion - that they aren't biased. They present both sides, discuss actions with a very neutral tone, and advocate for nothing. What about the stories strikes you as demonstrating bias?


Moshe thinks everything is biased, because otherwise everyone would see the Israel/Gaza situation exactly as he does. It's not possible that anyone disagrees, only that they've been duped.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
I clearly said I wasn't getting into the nitty-gritty of the stories because I've been there, done that but I completely agree with the OP about a bias in how things are worded, reported, etc by the BBC. What part of that don't you get?
The bit were you have not provided any evidence to back up your claim. It leads one to the conclusion they are biased not because they give one side unequal coverage, but because they do not give the other side unequal coverage.

They do not call Hamas terrorists (biased against Israel).
They do not call Israel terrorists (they are not biased against Hamas).

 
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jimbrax wrote:


It made me realise that the person was correct and from what I can see there isn't any real impartiality in the BBC. More fool me for thinking the great institution of the British Broadcasting Corporation would be the pinnacle of journalism.


Shocking! Institutionalized anti-Semitism from an English source? Who would have thought this possible?!? Everybody?
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MisterCranky wrote:
jimbrax wrote:


It made me realise that the person was correct and from what I can see there isn't any real impartiality in the BBC. More fool me for thinking the great institution of the British Broadcasting Corporation would be the pinnacle of journalism.


Shocking! Institutionalized anti-Semitism from an English source? Who would have thought this possible?!? Everybody?
Anti-Semitism, no wonder they put Michael Grade in charge at one time. bloody NAZIS?
 
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Moshe Callen
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perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.


Interestingly enough, I read those stories from the BBC end-to-end and reach the exact opposite conclusion - that they aren't biased. They present both sides, discuss actions with a very neutral tone, and advocate for nothing. What about the stories strikes you as demonstrating bias?

Notice how the only humanizing details of the victims given are for the "Palestinians"? Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization but according to the BBC they're only "militants". This paragraph:
BBC wrote:
Hundreds of rockets were fired into Israel by militants in Gaza, and Israel carried out numerous air strikes as cross-border violence soared in recent weeks.
Subtly morally equates the attacks by "Palestinians" and Israeli response. Notice how all condemnation and blame expressed in the article always also includes Israel? More moral equivalence. etc etc
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

I'll stay out of this one, although I agree with the OP. IMO if you're not seeing the bias, you're not really looking. I've been with this too many times before. Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.


Interestingly enough, I read those stories from the BBC end-to-end and reach the exact opposite conclusion - that they aren't biased. They present both sides, discuss actions with a very neutral tone, and advocate for nothing. What about the stories strikes you as demonstrating bias?

Notice how the only humanizing details of the victims given are for the "Palestinians"? Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization but according to the BBC they're only "militants". This paragraph:
BBC wrote:
Hundreds of rockets were fired into Israel by militants in Gaza, and Israel carried out numerous air strikes as cross-border violence soared in recent weeks.
Subtly morally equates the attacks by "Palestinians" and Israeli response. Notice how all condemnation and blame expressed in the article always also includes Israel? More moral equivalence. etc etc
How does this blame either side? By the way not everyone considers them terrorists (including the UK, the country the BBC is based in(oddly the EU does, all very confused)).
 
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Moshe Callen
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Do you even understand what bias means? Who, other than yourself, mentioned blaming anybody?
 
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whac3 wrote:
Do you even understand what bias means? Who, other than yourself, mentioned blaming anybody?
Well you did,
Quote:
Notice how all condemnation and blame expressed in the article always also includes Israel? More moral equivalence. etc etc
So they are biased because they...treat both sides equally?
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Do you even understand what bias means? Who, other than yourself, mentioned blaming anybody?
Well you did,
Quote:
Notice how all condemnation and blame expressed in the article always also includes Israel? More moral equivalence. etc etc
So they are biased because they...treat both sides equally?

No, actually I didn't.

Yes, morally equating random attacks on civilians by terrorists to legitimate defense against those attacks by an organized military conducting itself by the strict rules of warfare is bias. If the "Palestinians" made any effort to focus on legitimate targets then you might have a point. They don't, and you don't.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Notice how the only humanizing details of the victims given are for the "Palestinians"?


I'm not going to respond to the entire post - we'll just end up in a tit-for-tat that won't go very far.

All I will say is that I think you need to want it pretty badly to find bias in those stories. And I mean really badly.

But thanks for the reply.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Do you even understand what bias means? Who, other than yourself, mentioned blaming anybody?
Well you did,
Quote:
Notice how all condemnation and blame expressed in the article always also includes Israel? More moral equivalence. etc etc
So they are biased because they...treat both sides equally?

No, actually I didn't

Yes, morally equating random attacks on civilians by terrorists to legitimate defense against those attacks by an organized military conducting itself by the strict rules of warfare is bias. If the "Palestinians" made any effort to focus on legitimate targets then you might have a point. They don't, and you don't.


So blame, does not mean blame? The quotes passage does not equate the two morally, it state's the facts, that both sides are launching attacks.
 
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Where did I use the word "blame" except quoting you?
 
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whac3 wrote:
Where did I use the word "blame" except quoting you?
I had not said blame up to that point, in fact you were quoting my first post, which only says what Bias is in these articles. You in fact first raise the issue of apportioning blame.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Where did I use the word "blame" except quoting you?
I had not said blame up to that point, in fact you were quoting my first post, which only says what Bias is in these articles. You in fact first raise the issue of apportioning blame.

Um... OK. You seem to be playing word association rather than having a discussion.
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whac3 wrote:
Telling a Brit that the BBC is not reliable is comparable to telling one of a hundred years ago that the empire was not always benevolent and enlightened.


Given the constant barrage of the right wing press in the UK saying that the BBC is biased, I think this is not as universal as you suggest.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Where did I use the word "blame" except quoting you?
I had not said blame up to that point, in fact you were quoting my first post, which only says what Bias is in these articles. You in fact first raise the issue of apportioning blame.

Um... OK. You seem to be playing word association rather than having a discussion.
NO, I am denying an accusation that I first raised an issue (blame). This (perhaps) says more about why you see bias hen anything else, you see what you want (in this instance responding to something I never said).
 
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