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Subject: Guard spawning rss

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Shaun Murphy
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I'm currently into round 3 of my second game and am unsure about spawning:

1. When a new guard should spawn on the nearest spawn point on an adjacent tile through weapons use and only the starting tile and one other is revealed, where does a guard spawn? On the blue spawn points on the starting tile? On the other revealed tile as an exception? Or does no guard spawn at all?

2. What happens, when all guards of a color are already on the board and another one should get spawned?
a) no guard is spawned,
b) a guard of a different color (high or lower?) is spawned,
c) the guard farthest from the agent of the required color is moved to the spawning point?

I decided to go with c).

Edit: added question 2
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Michele Esmanech
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theasaris wrote:
I'm currently into round 3 of my second game and am unsure about spawning:

1. When a new guard should spawn on the nearest spawn point on an adjacent tile through weapons use and only the starting tile and one other is revealed, where does a guard spawn? On the blue spawn points on the starting tile? On the other revealed tile as an exception? Or does no guard spawn at all?

Guards spawn on the closest spawning point to the agent's area, and this might be a different (revealed) tile (but not necessarily a different tile). 
If only the starting tile of the mansion is revealed, there should be no guards on the map... And there should be no reason to spawn any guard (hence no guard to shoot at, and no guard activation). Remember that shooting at lights doesn't require the die roll.

theasaris wrote:
2. What happens, when all guards of a color are already on the board and another one should get spawned?
a) no guard is spawned,
b) a guard of a different color (high or lower?) is spawned,
c) the guard farthest from the agent of the required color is moved to the spawning point?


When you spawn a guard, you draw a random token from the bag, so it doesn't matter if, say, all yellows are on the map: when you spawn guards, you just pick a random token.
Never are you required a specific type of guard (apart blue guards, which are spawned on certain specific scenario events, and are never spawned through normal rules). 

I hope this helps.
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Shaun Murphy
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1. Ok, I'll need a clarification: I thought that in your blog you clarified the spawning rule, that guards are ALWAYS spawned on the closest spawn point on an ADJACENT tile, except for spawning when a new tile is revealed. See also the example in the rules on page 10 and my comment to your blog post:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/10542/more-playetsting...

In my game I had already advanced from the starting tile to the adjacent tile and rolled "Call for Backup" twice during the guard activation phase.

2.
As I am playing with real minis, I have corresponding wood tokens in a bag. When I need to spawn a guard, I draw a token, place it to the side and put a corresponding miniature on the board. When the bag is empty, I put all tokens back in the bag and draw again.
After this it happened that I drew a yellow guard token from the bag, but all 6 yellow guards were already on the board. What should I do? Is there no real guard component limit? As said above I just removed the yellow guard farthest away from the agent and spawned it immediately.
I hope my problem is cleared now.
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Michele Esmanech
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theasaris wrote:
1. Ok, I'll need a clarification: I thought that in your blog you clarified the spawning rule, that guards are ALWAYS spawned on the closest spawn point on an ADJACENT tile, except for spawning when a new tile is revealed. See also the example in the rules on page 10 and my comment to your blog post:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/10542/more-playetsting...

In my game I had already advanced from the starting tile to the adjacent tile and rolled "Call for Backup" twice during the guard activation phase.

That blog post was during play testing and a few things have been modified since then and many rules had gone through some changes.

theasaris wrote:
2.
As I am playing with real minis, I have corresponding wood tokens in a bag. When I need to spawn a guard, I draw a token, place it to the side and put a corresponding miniature on the board. When the bag is empty, I put all tokens back in the bag and draw again.
After this it happened that I drew a yellow guard token from the bag, but all 6 yellow guards were already on the board. What should I do? Is there no real guard component limit? As said above I just removed the yellow guard farthest away from the agent and spawned it immediately.
I hope my problem is cleared now.


I too use miniatures, but I have the tokens as bases for the miniatures themselves.
This means that when you spawn a guard, you shouldn't put its token (or wood token, in your case) in the bag, but leave it outside. This way you should have no problems.
There is a component limitation, and the green-yellow-red guard ratio has a meaning.

As a side note, in my first draft of the game, I had a spawning die, with 1 red face, 2 yellow and three green, but, in The end, I opted for chit pull system, to avoid extra rules for spawning guards when there were no more available guards of the rolled color/type, and even more rules for component limits.
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Shaun Murphy
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Better late answers than none

1. Ok, then I did play it wrong. With spawning on the same tile/closest spawning point the game would have been even harder, so perhaps I wouldn't have succeeded on my second after all. surprise

Note that your example on page 10 has the spawning part wrong then...


2. So, please tell me I have got this correct now:

I put 9 green, 6 yellow, 3 red and 2 blank tokens in the bag. Tokens I draw are placed off to the side (yellow tokens return to the bag when a yellow guard moves off the board). So far so good.

Now, what happens when I have drawn all 20 tokens from the bag? I assume I put them all back into the bag before I need to draw the 21st token. This is where the component limitation could be a problem:

During my second session it happened that my 21st token was yellow but I still had all 6 yellow guards on the board. That's why I decided to move the yellow guard farthest away from the agent to the current spawning point.

What should I have done?
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Michele Esmanech
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theasaris wrote:


Note that your example on page 10 has the spawning part wrong then...

i'll double check it, then, and if it's wronf, i'll correct it. thanks for the heads up.

theasaris wrote:
2. So, please tell me I have got this correct now:

I put 9 green, 6 yellow, 3 red and 2 blank tokens in the bag. Tokens I draw are placed off to the side (yellow tokens return to the bag when a yellow guard moves off the board). So far so good.

Now, what happens when I have drawn all 20 tokens from the bag? I assume I put them all back into the bag before I need to draw the 21st token. This is where the component limitation could be a problem
: it actually never occured to me that all the tokens had been drawn, apart the first, intro, mision, anyhow, I'll add the "component limitation" rule.

theasaris wrote:
During my second session it happened that my 21st token was yellow but I still had all 6 yellow guards on the board. That's why I decided to move the yellow guard farthest away from the agent to the current spawning point.

What should I have done?


this is where your problem is: you are using your personal components that are not meant to be used. When you need to spawn a guard, you draw from the bag, and you spawn what you draw.
it is totally illogical to spawn a type of guard that is not in the bag, to begin with.
following your example above: if all yellow guards were on the board, you would have never drawn another yellow one (they are already outside the bag), so the problem wouldn't arise.
Is this any clearer?

Try using the components, without having the cubes, and then picking the miniatures... or, at least, take the cubes out of the bag, when you draw them... this should make things more in line with the actual design, solving all your issues.

If you have more questions, though, feel free to post them.

cheers
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Shaun Murphy
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I did exactly as you suggested, but I think we still are misunderstanding each other. I DID remove the tokens from the bag after drawing them. Only after the bag was empty - after drawing 20 guard tokens - did I put them ALL back. That's how I could draw another yellow guard token even though there still were 6 yellow guards on the board.

So, what should I have done? After drawing the last token from the bag, should I only have returned those tokens to the back, that belonged to guards currently NOT on the board? If so, what happens if ALL 18 guards are on the board and you should spawn another one (yes, I know that's an unlikely case, but it could theoretically happen.)
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Nate K
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Huh-what? You put all the guard tokens back in the back? Even ones that were supposed to be on the board and active? Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Shaun Murphy
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You understood me correctly, but of course I didn't remove any Miniatures from the board. All guards stayed where they were. I just put the corresponding tokens back in the bag. I guess I should only have put those belonging to guards not on the board (which only were something like 3 red and 3 green at that time) back...
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Michele Esmanech
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theasaris wrote:
I did exactly as you suggested, but I think we still are misunderstanding each other. I DID remove the tokens from the bag after drawing them. Only after the bag was empty - after drawing 20 guard tokens - did I put them ALL back. That's how I could draw another yellow guard token even though there still were 6 yellow guards on the board.

So, what should I have done? After drawing the last token from the bag, should I only have returned those tokens to the back, that belonged to guards currently NOT on the board? If so, what happens if ALL 18 guards are on the board and you should spawn another one (yes, I know that's an unlikely case, but it could theoretically happen.)


There is certainly something wrong... probably in my understanding in what you're doing.

Lets begin from what the rules say (which is what I know best) then we'll work on what you are using and what you are doing wrong.

Lets suppose that there was a rule that talked about component limitation, and that if you needed to spawn new guards, and they were all on the board, you wouldn't spawn anything. This, as I said, never happened to me, but I might as well include it in the rules.

Ok, now, you come at a point where there are 6 guards on the board, and they are all yellow. Now you need to spawn a new one (for what ever reason, might it be a "call for back up", a new explored tile; you shooting... it doesn't matter).
What you do is you draw from the bag, and spawn which ever guard you pick. In this case, since all your yellow guards are already on the board, you will draw a green or red guard (no doubt about this).
There is no way, what so ever, that you will spawn a 7th yellow guard.

This is easier to understand using guard tokens, which are not only the tokens you draw from the bag, but are the actual guards that will be present on the board.

Is it any clearer now?
Like I said: your mistake is using components which are not meant to be.
What I do is use miniatures with slotta-bases, and use the bases as tokens: the substance doesn't change.
If you use tokens for the bag, and miniatures, you need to keep track of more stuff.
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Nate K
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theasaris wrote:
You understood me correctly, but of course I didn't remove any Miniatures from the board. All guards stayed where they were. I just put the corresponding tokens back in the bag. I guess I should only have put those belonging to guards not on the board (which only were something like 3 red and 3 green at that time) back...


AH. Okay, got it. I use the tokens as guards, rather than having separate minis, which is why there was a disconnect. Okay, then.
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Michele Esmanech
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I was ninjaed by your reply... it seems like we understood your problem.

theasaris wrote:
You understood me correctly, but of course I didn't remove any Miniatures from the board. All guards stayed where they were. I just put the corresponding tokens back in the bag. I guess I should only have put those belonging to guards not on the board (which only were something like 3 red and 3 green at that time) back...



happy things worked out! thumbsup

Thanks for the help Nate.
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Shaun Murphy
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Ah, at last we all are completely on the same page! I have understood my mistake and will play correctly next time. Thanks for your patience.

I just fear that I'll have an even harder time... Will take pictures and post a session report again then. This game definitely needs to get more attention. How are your publisher negotiations coming along by the way?
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Shaun Murphy
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Hi Michele, a follow-up question: When refilling the bag, should the 2 blanks get included or left out?
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Michele Esmanech
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Included... Among the "normal" guard tokens
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