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Subject: Questions for lovers of this game rss

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PO
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I'm toying with getting MK.
When I look through the negative reviews, the following issues are put forward,

- Movement is slow & tedious
- Downtime when it's not your turn is long
- You are at the mercy of the cards you draw. If the cards you draw don't support what you want to do, then your stuck.

I appreciate that this is a long & complex game, but I'm happy to sit down & learn it. A number of the video reviews have given me an insight into the basics of the game.

My only concern is that it's not a cheap game. I'm happy to make the investment on good games, but the above issues are of concern & so I just thought I'd get the feelings of those who love this game regarding what their thoughts are.

So, what are your thoughts?
 
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Martin Presley
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Issues of movement being slow and not drawing the cards you need basically all but disappear when you have more experience with the game. It can be challenging to juggle the need for movement with attack and utility powers, or position yourself so you have multiple options next turn (keeping in mind what cards are left in your deck) but it's just that, a challenge.

Downtime can be problematic, but as people get more comfortable with the game it lessens significantly. Playing with fewer than 4 people is a natural solution, and playing co-op/in teams will let you have input and be more active during other people's turns. And if none of this appeals to you, it is a fantastic, and I mean FANTASTIC, solo game.
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Andre Lucato
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The movement mechanic forces you to deplete your hand a bit. I do not actually find it boring but consider it as part of the whole puzzle.

Regarding downtime, I honestly can't say much for I've had only played solo.

Being at the mercy of your cards not being able to do much? It's a bit of nonsense, as long as you have a better knowledge of your deck, knowing what have been drawn then planning your turn for whatever cards that may show up.

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TTorres
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I've played solo most of the time, so downtime is a non-issue! On three occasions I have played with others. Once with 3 new players (I will never try this again), once as co-op with a new player (a patient gamer; this was long but fun), and once as co-op with another MK enthusiast (this was awesome fun).

Movement slow and tedious? Depends on how you enjoy your gaming. The scale of the board is such that some days moving a few hexes in total is both a huge accomplishment and extremely satisfying. In addition, most of the time I would be focusing on some other activity as well, e.g. leveling up, ridding the land of evil creatures, recruiting units, healing/gathering resources, burning down monasteries, etc. However during other plays I can pull off the most amazing of combos, running (or flying as the case may be) over huge spans of distance to decimate a city or achieve some other goal. The moment of realization when a massive combo reveals itself is wildly satisfying (to me). YMMV, of course.

It's a thinking player's game for sure. Much of my enjoyment arises from working to exploit every last benefit of what I have in hand, against the timer of the dummy player (for solo/co-op play). The urgency inevitably increases at the end of each day as the dummy player accumulates more cards and crystals, which accelerates the rate of each day.

As I've said repeatedly, this is far and away the most entertaining solo game I own, so much so that I do not consider searching for another to replace it. It scratches many of my gaming itches (I'm not contagious, I swear).

Hope that helps.
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Plei Forejoy
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To me, this game is more about doing the best you can with the options presented, rather than trying to get the resources to do what you want.

In essence, it is more of a puzzle game (with an fantasy adventure theme) to me, and I love it as such.

The downtime is no concern if you play it solo, which I like as much as playing with others (in any case, my downtime can be as long or longer than the people I played with so far ).
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Ivan Myers Jr
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Movement isn't slow or tedious, at least not in my experience. The movement element of the game is part of it's pacing and challenge. Thematically it's part of the "adventure," overcoming difficult terrain.

Downtime, unfortunately, is an issue, but it's something that will vary with groups. Playing your turn out can be puzzle-like in nature in some of the more difficult situations, so if there is an analysis-paralysis player in your group then they will drag this game down to a crawl!

I must say, however, that even though I typically HATE games with high down time; I love Mage Knight. The game has enough going for it that I can get over my problem with the downtime.

Hope that helps.
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that Matt
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Paul65 wrote:
- Movement is slow & tedious

It's really not.

If you have some kind of expectation that you'll be running all over the board smacking every new monster in the face, yeah, you might be a little let down... on the first turn or two that you ever play. Then you'll see how the game works. I think flipping through the play-by-forums or watching a couple gameplay videos would confirm this: movement is neither slow nor tedious.

I suspect that most of the complaining about movement is actually a side effect of broader dislikes. People who don't like the puzzley gameplay are frustrated that they can't do everything (move over there, kill that thing, get the loot, etc.) and that inability to "move over there" is step 1 of their frustrations.
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Ryan McLelland
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1. The movement complaint is 100% unfounded. Once you know how to play you can setup your turns to do what you want to do.

2. This is a legit concern as you are learning the game. 4 Player games can be REALLY long. The down time can be extreme. I would recommend 2 player games for teaching MK and once you have 3 others that are comfortable with the game it should move pretty well. Even with experienced players you will still have many minutes between turns in a 4 player game. It is not uncommon for someone to take 5-10 minutes for their turn.

3. This one would only apply if you are new to the game. After 3-4 games I felt like I was in control of what I wanted to do because I knew what was in my deck.
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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I've played 7 times now, all solo with one 3p, and I believe I've learned and improved with each game. (Finally had my first full solo conquest win in game 7, with 198 points!) I love that it rewards experience and is challenging, and I feel like there's still a lot more to discover and learn and experience. Yes, movement is tricky, but you'll improve with experience and find interesting and even clever ways to do what you want. It can be a very rewarding game, but it rewards your effort through adversity... You wouldn't want that to come too easy, would you?

Of course, downtime isn't an issue when playing solo, but even in the 3p game I didn't feel it was a problem, as it plays right into your need to work things out with what you want to do while you're waiting for your turn. I think 4p is pushing it, though... I don't think I'd ever be eager to play a 4p game unless everyone was very experienced. Our 3p game took about 4 hrs. to do the blitz conquest (shorter version of the full game), but we enjoyed it.

Regardless, I'd say that play time is probably more of an issue than downtime. The game actually gets longer with more downtime as it progresses... We were kind of deceived when the first round flew by so fast in a half hour, but as everyone builds up, there are more cards to play, more enemies to fight, and more tough decisions about what to do.
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Ernest S
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I'll echo everyone else here:

- downtime in multi-player is high, but time STILL goes by soooo fast!

- The other two concerns are matters of perspective. Like the others who have replied, I think managing your cards and figuring out the terrain is part of the fun in this game.
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David McCallum
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There are situations for me that the down time is a plus. Planning your
Next move, what to attack, remembering cards left in my deck that will work on my next turn, ect. Just turning a negative into a positive.
whistle
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Lonnie H
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foofire wrote:
There are situations for me that the down time is a plus. Planning your
Next move, what to attack, remembering cards left in my deck that will work on my next turn, ect. Just turning a negative into a positive.
whistle


I agree completely.

Hopefully everyone is planning their turn during the other player's turns and so our games have moved pretty quick. I wouldn't play with someone who waited until their turn to plan out things. Sometimes, I would hope the other player would take a little longer.....causing I'm still pondering my many options.....this is in a 2p game.
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Bill Stivers
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Paul65 wrote:
I'm toying with getting MK.
When I look through the negative reviews, the following issues are put forward,

- Movement is slow & tedious
- Downtime when it's not your turn is long
- You are at the mercy of the cards you draw. If the cards you draw don't support what you want to do, then your stuck.

I appreciate that this is a long & complex game, but I'm happy to sit down & learn it. A number of the video reviews have given me an insight into the basics of the game.

My only concern is that it's not a cheap game. I'm happy to make the investment on good games, but the above issues are of concern & so I just thought I'd get the feelings of those who love this game regarding what their thoughts are.

So, what are your thoughts?


1. Movement - Any card can be movement, its part of managing your cards. Really Non-issue.
2. Downtime - Really Downtime should not be time wasted. You should be planning your turn.
3. Never!!!! Figure it out and make the best play possible. You have full control over what your character does each turn.

I love this game as a competitive game. 2-4 players is the best way for me to play the game. Solo is fun, but I have a good group to play with and would rather do that. I think I am going to start a new thread talking about multi player vs solo play. My faviorte game I have played so far has been a 4 player game.
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manus trium
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An anecdote on movement: It's in many ways a deck building game. I once built a deck with way too much movement. I could move pretty much anywhere I needed on any given turn... and couldn't do much else. Lost pretty badly to both my wife and our good friend. I enjoyed learning the lesson though!
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Jeff Dunford
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Regarding downtime, I consider Mage Knight to be a 1-2 player game. I've played intro/blitz scenarios with 3, but I don't think I'd enjoy a 3-4 player full scenario. It's not only because of the downtime, but also because the game has limited interaction. It's more like a solitaire game where you try to maximize your score while socializing with a friend... like playing golf.

As for the other points, Mage Knight is a puzzle game. It's all about hand and deck management; e.g. figuring out the optimal play given your hand of cards, and planning for future hands knowing exactly what remains in your deck. Sometimes you can't move very far in a given turn, and sometimes you can't quite kill that enemy next to you (or at least not without taking a few wounds). That's part of the game. It's similar to A Few Acres of Snow in that regard: Sometimes you have a hand where there just isn't much you can do this turn, but you can use that as an opportunity to make your next turn a more powerful turn. But there is very little luck in the game. People who don't like puzzles and don't like having limited options and/or restrictions on what they can do from turn to turn might not like this game, just as people who don't like co-ops might not like Pandemic, or people who don't like chaos might not like Cosmic Encounter.
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Jason Rupp
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Paul65 wrote:
I'm toying with getting MK.
When I look through the negative reviews, the following issues are put forward,

- Movement is slow & tedious
- Downtime when it's not your turn is long
- You are at the mercy of the cards you draw. If the cards you draw don't support what you want to do, then your stuck.

I appreciate that this is a long & complex game, but I'm happy to sit down & learn it. A number of the video reviews have given me an insight into the basics of the game.

My only concern is that it's not a cheap game. I'm happy to make the investment on good games, but the above issues are of concern & so I just thought I'd get the feelings of those who love this game regarding what their thoughts are.

So, what are your thoughts?


Only #2 is a valid concern imo.

It is a concern though. For example, I would never play a 4 player game of MK because the downtime would be too large. Even at 3 player (depending on the players) the downtime is often fairly long. I probably enjoy this game most as a solo experience but it is nice to have the competition of other players so 2 and 3 player is a lot of fun as well.

If you absolutely hate downtime and you don't want to play the game solo, you probably won't enjoy the game.

The other 2 concerns are just from inexperienced players that didn't give the game a chance and therefore haven't fully explored the game yet.
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Pawel Bulacz
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I love this game. My answers:

- If you feel Movement is hard - that's good, who told you it should be easy?
- During other players turn try to find best play of your cards, you will notice you won't find the best answer and it's already your turn!
- When you know the game and what cards are in your deck you should know how to play. If you had all move cards in your hand try to move to the area where you can stay and gain profit from fighting, interacting etc...

Advise:
- Buy the expansion! It's worth it.
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Michael J
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Quote:
You are at the mercy of the cards you draw. If the cards you draw don't support what you want to do, then your stuck.


Look at it this way. Cards in MK serve the same purpose as dice in an Ameritrash game. The difference between the two is that whereas in Ameritrash, you roll and miss and can't react after the fact, in MK, the bad rolls happen at the beginning of your turn, allowing you to pursue other options on your turn. This is actually far less punishing than most Ameritrash games.
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PO
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OK - thanks all for your insights. Very helpful.
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