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Jaime Lawrence
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http://alivetinyworld.com/2012/11/27/too-many-reasons-why/

Please go and read this. I'm not pointing any fingers, but I know that I will be trying to make the game store a more inviting place for women in the future.
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Thanks Jaime for sharing the link. There has been quite a lot of discussion around this exact topic here at Women's Forum in the past.

I'm really glad you take this seriously. I just wish I could walk into your store
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Ade Lewis
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It does not matter what sex you are when you play boardgames, its sex neutral.

Its only an issue if you make it one.
Looks like thats what your trying to do.
Looks like thats what the linked blog is trying to do.

What exactly is the problem here?


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Jaime Lawrence
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The problem is that not everyone thinks like you, Ade.
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Necker wrote:
Its only an issue if you make it one.
Looks like thats what your trying to do.
Looks like thats what the linked blog is trying to do.

What exactly is the problem here?

The blog entry gave a lot of examples of issues the blog author personally experienced. Are you saying none of them are problems or examples of sexism?
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Necker wrote:
It does not matter what sex you are when you play boardgames, its sex neutral.

Its only an issue if you make it one.
Looks like thats what your trying to do.
Looks like thats what the linked blog is trying to do.

What exactly is the problem here?




mmm I am not to sure of your motives here but you have the benefit of the doubt.

yes I agree with your first sentence - in a perfect world this would be true of many things, but sadly not as long as there are us humans with our frailties, egos, bias and free thought.


with respect to the next section, I don't think Jaime is making an issue of "it" I gathered from the piece she only wanted to 'say' it out loud in a safe place, having found her twitter and Facebook pages would cause an unwelcome response. This sub-forum was created and continues for that purpose - for women to have their say,[although not exclusively for women] you might find some will agree and some wont-and that's fine its just that we argue the point not the person... and I have recently learnt from a few fellow BGGers that there is a culture of gender negativity and behaviour directed at women.
Jaime I hope that you do make inroads into making a small part of the gaming world welcoming to other women, you build a house one brick at a time.
I will follow your blog with interest
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Jaime Lawrence
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Joose wrote:

Jaime I hope that you do make inroads into making a small part of the gaming world welcoming to other women, you build a house one brick at a time.
I will follow your blog with interest


Thanks, but it isn't mine - I just found it and thought it was important. When my store opens, this will be a guiding philosophy.
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Sue Hemberger

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re your game store.

The lone FLGS in Washington, DC: http://www.labyrinthgameshop.com/ strikes me as a very welcoming and inclusive place. But I wonder if some harder-core gamers would see it as too kid-friendly to be a "real" FLGS.
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The back story for people who don't know is that game developer, Luke Crane, tweeted a question, "Why aren't there more lady game creators?"

People started to respond to the question with their own experiences with the hashtag: #1reasonwhy

If you have a twitter account, I encourage you to read these tweets. People often try to say that sexism isn't that prevalent, that women exaggerate or that it's no big deal, that they should feel complimented when people leer at them. Hopefully seeing all these experiences from so many different women can give doubters an idea why we need to try to make gaming a more welcoming place for women.
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There is more discussion of this on this thread: "Why are there so few lady game creators?" (Twitter #1reasonwhy)

Here is what I wrote on that thread...

This is such an embarrassingly vast subject and to be honest, I hate talking about it. Not because I am scared to say my feelings. Not because I think the current state of women in gaming is just fine (it's not). Not because I think all men are sexist (we all aren't).

The reason I hate talking about it is that every time there is a thread about some aspect of women and sexism in gaming, I get extremely upset. Why? Because of the lack of even a cursory attempt at understanding another person's point of view that is exhibited by an awful lot of people. So many men (and some women) have a blindness to just how oppressive the world can be (even in the US) to women. So many men think that if we treat women fairly or if we develop games with interesting women characters that it will take away the things they like about games (especially the tits and ass in the art) and leave them with nothing to enjoy. That is false, by the way - expanding the hobby to include more women does nothing to reduce the enjoyment a man can get from these things because they will remain in the hobby, even if we start to make more female friendly products.

And forget art for a second - women have to work a lot harder (in many industries and companies) to get the same recognition as a man gets in the same position. Women generally make less money than a man in the same position with the same education and experience. Women traditionally spend more time taking care of the children and the household - this is shifting slowly, but is still a valid description of most US households with two parents of different genders living in the home. A man's skills are assumed to be top notch if he has the education and experience, while a woman with the same education and experience has to prove that her boyfriend or husband didn't help her get through school by doing the math problems for her and she didn't get the experience by sleeping with a male boss. Sad to say it, but this shit still goes on in the world today. Many men feel that it doesn't because they haven't experienced it first hand, so they assume the problem has disappeared and it isn't worth addressing.

I hate to say it, but the discussion makes me tired and sad. Even on RPGGeek, which I consider to be the best RPG site with the least amount of trolling and flaming I have ever seen on the internet. Even here, I still experience this feeling and get pushback from many men for advocating for change in the industry. For example, in this 11 page thread: How to Make D&D Art More Inclusive
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I just wish more women would stand up, but many are shy or non-confrontional. I get that. What I don't like to see, however, is the idea that it's all so hopeless that nothing you do will ever change things.

I read a columnist on CNN by the name of LZ Granderson. Being both black and gay gives him a unique and interesting perspective on the world's ills.

A couple of seasons ago, some of my fellow Bostonians embarrased themselves and, indeed, all who call themselves such. In the NHL playoffs, the Bruins were eliminated by a goal scored by a person of color.

The tweets that followed were unimaginably barbaric. I won't repeat them here, but I'm sure you all know exactly the types of things that were said.

Granderson wrote a column about the incident. We shared the same feeling in some cases, but mostly that it DOES seem hopeless, it DOES seem that all of whatever progress was made just went right down the proverbial tube. It definitely can feel like that.

But we can't let it. In his column, Granderson expressed dismay at the state of things in front of a friend, who just happened to be a Jerry Rice, one of the most prolific and admired recievers in the history of the NFL.

Rice said to him; "if we want progress, then we need to accept the fact that we will run a race in which we never get to see the finish line".

I don't think anything like "hopeless" even entered the mind of Rosa Parks. The fight would be long and monumental. It would be one in which we frequently despair. It would often seem hopeless. But there she sat.

She's definitely one of my heroes. You don't need to be a hero, though. Just an example.
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Scrogdog wrote:
I just wish more women would stand up, but many are shy or non-confrontional.

Because, as you clearly point out, it does seem hopeless, etc, but also because there's only so much hate/it's your own fault/grow some thicker skin/etc that someone can take. It's tiring, really.

And some of us are trying to stand up for women in other areas, and it's hard to put forth the effort to stand up for women in all areas at the same time. In the end, hopefully the results will be the same -- that women and other traditionally under-represented groups will be respected for being people and being able to contribute to whatever field/area. And I hope that as eyes are opened for one area/under-represented group, those individuals will also open their eyes with respect to areas.

I may not have written that very well -- I'm trying to be as open and inclusive as I can, rather than just talking about women and just talking about gaming.

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Don't think I can't get in to your shoes. Don't think I can't empathize. I can. But maybe in an uncomfortable way for you.

For the past 30 years, the response to this problem has led to the feminist movement and the rise of women. YAY! As a man I can only say, good going! I am not threatened or intimidated.

But, please releaze that the anger of women has manifested itself in such a way that men are now veiwed as inherently bad! Imagine how it must feel to be repeatedly told that you are fundamentally flawed. Imagine how it must be to know that anytime a women isn't happy, it's a man's fault. Imagine how we view our mates when we frequently encounter groups of women at resteraunts and such who make a hilarious game out of announcing what hopeless fools thier men are!

Also, women seem to have as little understanding of men as we do of women. Men have it built in to thier DNA to make a difference. They need to matter. But that's not what women want, seemingly. At least "modern" women. Then these women go on to note that lack of marraigable men!

We know you can do it all. We like that you can do it all. But if you always WANT to do it all, there's nothing left for men. Unless you are looking for trophy husbands.

I've always thought that one of the most offensive terms ever is "trophy wife". Perhaps you can imagine, then, why there is no desire for men to become "trophy husbands".

Just one man's fundamentally flawed opinion.
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Very nice link Jaime. Very recognizable, though my environment is not nearly as bad.. But these things for many women are (some of the) reasons to keep gaming on an off-line or friends only base. Luckily the boardgames world is further along than the digital games world (or at least it seems that way to me if I compare the cons I've been to of both).
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But, please releaze that the anger of women has manifested itself in such a way that men are now veiwed as inherently bad! Imagine how it must feel to be repeatedly told that you are fundamentally flawed. Imagine how it must be to know that anytime a women isn't happy, it's a man's fault. Imagine how we view our mates when we frequently encounter groups of women at resteraunts and such who make a hilarious game out of announcing what hopeless fools thier men are!


I think this is one of the huge misunderstood ideas about femanism,womens space,women friendly ideas - most women just dont view men in that wat - its so off beam

if it were so then i can imagine it would be very degrading - steve i do know though what you mean about het women making jokes about theit partners - i hate it and interesting het women can do that but lesbians would be called man haters
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amwiles wrote:
Scrogdog wrote:
I just wish more women would stand up, but many are shy or non-confrontional.

Because, as you clearly point out, it does seem hopeless, etc, but also because there's only so much hate/it's your own fault/grow some thicker skin/etc that someone can take. It's tiring, really.


For me, another aspect of it is that there are contexts where speaking up actually seems counterproductive. Certainly I've had experiences where discussions about sexism have functioned as occasions to move from implicit, seemingly inadvertent, sexism to explicit, aggressive sexism. Long-term maybe provoking those discussions/outing those attitudes is beneficial. Short-term, it makes the environment seem more hostile. So it's always a judgment call re when and how to intervene.
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To be honest, Jood, I've felt that way for some time, but did not feel comfy making the assertion simply because, well, I'm sort of an amatuer observer of the human condition (not an expert mind you) and nothing I'm reading out there even hinted at this stance being valid.

That is, until two days ago, I found this article on Fox (please note that this is not a political article).

The War on Men

This article was written by a female psycologist who specializes in love, sex and relationship matters.

I was particularly struck by this passage; only because if there are a group of several men who state in no uncertain terms that they will never get married, you might expect various reasons for it. There were not various reasons. There was one reason.

Quote:
As the author of three books on the American family and its intersection with pop culture, I’ve spent thirteen years examining social agendas as they pertain to sex, parenting, and gender roles. During this time, I’ve spoken with hundreds, if not thousands, of men and women. And in doing so, I’ve accidentally stumbled upon a subculture of men who’ve told me, in no uncertain terms, that they’re never getting married. When I ask them why, the answer is always the same.

Women aren’t women anymore


I do not believe that ALL women are like this anymore than you should believe that all men are sexist. Nor do I beleive that a single article is the be all and end all of anything. But, I CAN tell you that this article very much agrees with several personal experiences.

I'm dating a wonderful woman right now, but it took some time to find one who shares my rather old fashioned sense of standards, eithics and values. Not that I think every woman should be that way either, simply that while being an individual, while proving that yes, you can do anything you want, take some care. Your overall anger is justified to an extent, but now it's becoming a cultural thing, and I don't believe that part to be a very good thing.
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Jonna
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Slightly related to this topic:

There was a study in Finland about problems in relationship between a man and a woman. The conclusion was that most marital probles are rising from the fact that the roles of a man and a woman aren't what they used to be. According to the study a man needs to feel like a strong man. Like they can and will be providing for their family, like they can protect their family, like they are needed, like they are the knight in shining armour.

And then in comes a modern woman who is so independent and strong that she does not need a man like she needed back in stone age. Then the man starts to feel useless and worthless.

I don't have any strong opinion on the matter. I just wanted to share it with you, as like I said, it's slightly related
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Kattvippa wrote:
Slightly related to this topic:

There was a study in Finland about problems in relationship between a man and a woman. The conclusion was that most marital probles are rising from the fact that the roles of a man and a woman aren't what they used to be. According to the study a man needs to feel like a strong man. Like they can and will be providing for their family, like they can protect their family, like they are needed, like they are the knight in shining armour.

And then in comes a modern woman who is so independent and strong that she does not need a man like she needed back in stone age. Then the man starts to feel useless and worthless.

I don't have any strong opinion on the matter. I just wanted to share it with you, as like I said, it's slightly related


Yeah, that's it, more or less. But, you need to understand that, at least with a good man, it's not about him needing to be strong because you are weak and incapable. More like we want to feel like we're doing the heavy lifting and the worrying. Again, not that we need to shield you from those things because you are a limp biscuit, only that we want to take these things away from your life so you can spend more time doing other things that fulfill you.

Doing that fulfills us, as strange as that might sound.

I know it might sound a bit, I don't know, egotistical or something, but that is hard wired in to us. We cannot escape.

That's why this economy is so bad for men in particular. Again, I've bever been intimidated by women that are taller, smarter or make more money. Even so, if a man gets it in his head that he is incapable of providing, it is a VERY bad thing for him. He begins to question his worth, his place in the community, his very manhood. Even if it is irrelevent to the woman because she makes great money and why should he worry?

Case in point, the one time, many years ago, that I was unemployed for four whole months. Seemed like an eternity and it really began to do some freaky things to my mind. I felt like the cops were going to pull me over and say "hey you! Shouldn't you be somewhere?" lol - I was a mess.

Another thing we just can't escape.
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Scrogdog wrote:
Men have it built in to thier DNA to make a difference.

I don't agree. I think it's a social construct that men feel they have to lead/be in charge of/be the knight in shining armor, so to speak. I think it's "environmental," rather than biological. Unless, of course, you are meaning that it's a part of who they are, not that it's actually in their DNA. Sorry, as a geneticist, I think in concrete terms about something "being encoded in DNA. "

And I think that a very large proportion of people, regardless of sex or gender (and those are different things!) have the desire to make a difference. Not, perhaps, to be a protector in shining armor, but to make some sort of difference in their world.

Equal rights, or equal pay, or equal treatment, or whatever you'd like to call it, isn't about taking away rights of the "ruling" group, but rather to lift up the other group.

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Jonna
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Scrogdog wrote:
Kattvippa wrote:
Slightly related to this topic:

There was a study in Finland about problems in relationship between a man and a woman. The conclusion was that most marital probles are rising from the fact that the roles of a man and a woman aren't what they used to be. According to the study a man needs to feel like a strong man. Like they can and will be providing for their family, like they can protect their family, like they are needed, like they are the knight in shining armour.

And then in comes a modern woman who is so independent and strong that she does not need a man like she needed back in stone age. Then the man starts to feel useless and worthless.

I don't have any strong opinion on the matter. I just wanted to share it with you, as like I said, it's slightly related


Yeah, that's it, more or less. But, you need to understand that, at least with a good man, it's not about him needing to be strong because you are weak and incapable. More like we want to feel like we're doing the heavy lifting and the worrying. Again, not that we need to shield you from those things because you are a limp biscuit, only that we want to take these things away from your life so you can spend more time doing other things that fulfill you.

Doing that fulfills us, as strange as that might sound.

I know it might sound a bit, I don't know, egotistical or something, but that is hard wired in to us. We cannot escape.

That's why this economy is so bad for men in particular. Again, I've bever been intimidated by women that are taller, smarter or make more money. Even so, if a man gets it in his head that he is incapable of providing, it is a VERY bad thing for him. He begins to question his worth, his place in the community, his very manhood. Even if it is irrelevent to the woman because she makes great money and why should he worry?

Case in point, the one time, many years ago, that I was unemployed for four whole months. Seemed like an eternity and it really began to do some freaky things to my mind. I felt like the cops were going to pull me over and say "hey you! Shouldn't you be somewhere?" lol - I was a mess.

Another thing we just can't escape.

Very well put, I liked to read your description of how it feels. I don't completely understand it - in deep level - but I do get the point.

And I don't think it's anything away from me, if I let my SO feel like he's needed. Because he is. Not for the same reasons that he would've been back in Stone Age, but I still need him. He's my best friend, he listens to me, he loves me even when I might not deserve it the most, he is there for me. He even playes a board game with me every once in a while when I ask him nicely
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Jonna
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amwiles wrote:
Equal rights, or equal pay, or equal treatment, or whatever you'd like to call it, isn't about taking away rights of the "ruling" group, but rather to lift up the other group.

That is very well said
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The whole thing is tied to communication and respect. I'm talking about sexism, and "women not being women anymore" and everything else brought up here.

Women should not denigrate men (or other women) and men should not denigrate men (or other men) and people just should not denigrate other people.

Also, it was quite hard to find a mate, from my personal experience and I think it's getting harder for men to find mates because women are pickier than they've ever been. And along the way, some have not learned man/woman communication skills. Everyone wants to be needed though, not just men, and that's part of the communication skills between men and women that's often lacking.
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amwiles wrote:
Scrogdog wrote:
Men have it built in to thier DNA to make a difference.

I don't agree. I think it's a social construct that men feel they have to lead/be in charge of/be the knight in shining armor, so to speak. I think it's "environmental," rather than biological. Unless, of course, you are meaning that it's a part of who they are, not that it's actually in their DNA. Sorry, as a geneticist, I think in concrete terms about something "being encoded in DNA. "

And I think that a very large proportion of people, regardless of sex or gender (and those are different things!) have the desire to make a difference. Not, perhaps, to be a protector in shining armor, but to make some sort of difference in their world.

Equal rights, or equal pay, or equal treatment, or whatever you'd like to call it, isn't about taking away rights of the "ruling" group, but rather to lift up the other group.


Well, a word I hear often is that we are "programmed" so whatever that means to you. Social programming sounds as good as anything else I suppose. But that doesn't mean it isn't very strong within us. Just like the unfair double sexual standard society places upon women. Just because you might agree that it is silly and stupid does not mean that it's all that easy to navigate around, does it?

What I'm saying is that it has become more than just being about equality. I want you to have those things. I'm very supportive of women's rights.

But the anger component has had some consequences.

However, I will say that in a general sense, society itself, not only women, are moving in this direction. President Obama's "The Life of Julia" is a shining example. No where in that story is any mention of a father or husband, or any influence from the community whatsoever.

Only a single mom and her relationship with the state.

Ah well, in 30 years mankind will be a group of socially and genetically engineered Borg anyway. Glad I won't be around to see it.
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