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Subject: Do subroutines trigger if icebreaker cannot match strength? rss

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Manu
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Hi Folks

I played my first game yesterday, as runner, and came upon this dilemma.

The corp had set-up an elaborate and nasty succession of ice. After breaking the first ice, and having decided to continue on the second one, I did not have enough credits to match its strength. That second ice had some rather nasty subroutines on it, but we couldn't figure out if they triggered since I could not even match the strength of the ice with my icebreaker + credits.

How should it have played out? Should the subroutines affect me? (we decided that they would). I really couldn't make it out from reading and re-reading the rules...

Thanks
 
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Paul Grogan
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If you encounter a piece of ice and do not break the subroutines, they will trigger.

Dont forget though that if this 2nd piece of ice was already revealed and you had seen it, you would have known that you couldnt break it, so you can always jack out after the first piece and choose not to continue the run.
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Brian
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supamanu wrote:
Hi Folks

I played my first game yesterday, as runner, and came upon this dilemma.

The corp had set-up an elaborate and nasty succession of ice. After breaking the first ice, and having decided to continue on the second one, I did not have enough credits to match its strength. That second ice had some rather nasty subroutines on it, but we couldn't figure out if they triggered since I could not even match the strength of the ice with my icebreaker + credits.

How should it have played out? Should the subroutines affect me? (we decided that they would). I really couldn't make it out from reading and re-reading the rules...

Thanks


If you agree to go to the next ice, because, say it's not rezzed. Then the corp rezzes. Then the subroutines trigger and would affect you whether you can meet strength or not. They always trigger unless you break them.

Now if you wanted to avoid it, you can jack out before encountering the ice. If it is already rezzed, and you know you can't match strength, you can jack out after getting by one ice, but before meeting another.
 
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Manu
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Thanks guys. The ice was, naturally, un-rezzed... ok well it makes sense, and I'm glad we played it right (well, not that glad since I got my ass kicked but )
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Paul Grogan
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supamanu wrote:
Thanks guys. The ice was, naturally, un-rezzed... ok well it makes sense, and I'm glad we played it right (well, not that glad since I got my ass kicked but )


You can still jack out before they rez it. See what happens after the first piece, if that has drained your bit pool, think twice about continuing.
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Noah D

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Note that if this weren't the answer, Icebreakers would be a liability, and (once all Runners had removed every breaker from their deck) Ice would have zero effect. And the Corporation would win exactly 0 out of 100 games
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B C Z
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Noah brings up the point I was going to make.

Ice is there to stop/harm the Runner - that's its job. It is going to do its job unless something stops that job from being done.

Icebreakers break subroutines on ice. Icebreakers are how the Runner stops all the nasty from happening to them. The Runner gives up time/resources/money in order to prevent the ice from working properly, and the condition to use an icebreaker is to pump up/match strength before breaking the subroutines.
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Yan
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I guess it's worth adding that the subroutines on ice would trigger even if you did not even have an ice breaker to begging with. The moment you initiate a run you put yourself at high risk of suffering the effects of one or more subroutines.

It is the runner's job to go out of his way and spend fortunes to manage to successfully break subroutines... OR ELSE !

Ice are not programmed to show mercy on ill prepared runners. Quite the opposite actually...
 
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Chris
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I have a short question to ice too.

it is clear to me, that when you have the same strengh like the ice you can if you want and be able to, break the subroutines or let them trigger.

weather you break the subroutines or not, you passed the ice and have to deal with the next piece of ice if you don't jack out.

but now my question:

if you DOESN'T have the strenght, equal or more than the ice and the subroutines trigger, do i pass the ice and can go to the next piece of ice or does the run end?

or does the run only ends, when a subroutine says so?

 
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Benedetto Loffredo
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adjacentbeastman wrote:
it is clear to me, that when you have the same strengh like the ice you can if you want and be able to, break the subroutines or let them trigger.


You, the Runner, don't have strenght.
The icebrekers have.

adjacentbeastman wrote:
weather you break the subroutines or not, you passed the ice and have to deal with the next piece of ice if you don't jack out.


If one of the subroutine you choose not to (or can't) break is an "End the run" then you do not pass the ice and your run is over.

adjacentbeastman wrote:

if you DOESN'T have the strenght, equal or more than the ice and the subroutines trigger, do i pass the ice and can go to the next piece of ice or does the run end?
or does the run only ends, when a subroutine says so?


If the subroutines trigger, you have to suffer all the consequences: take tags, loosing click, whatever else the subroutines say....
And again, like I've just said, if one of the subroutine you didn't break break is an "End the run", then you didn't pass the ice and your run is over.
If none of the subroutine you've just suffered is an "End the run", you may go ahead to the next piece of ice (if any).
 
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Trevor Schadt
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adjacentbeastman wrote:
I have a short question to ice too.

it is clear to me, that when you have the same strengh like the ice you can if you want and be able to, break the subroutines or let them trigger.
OK, you (as the Runner) don't have a "strength." Your Icebreakers each have their own strength.

In order to interact with a piece of ICE, the Icebreaker must have the same strength as the ICE. Assuming that that Icebreaker gives you the ability to break subroutines on that particular type of ICE, you can then break those subroutines.

(For example: Corroder gives you the ability to break Barrier subroutines. Using Corroder, you could pay 1 credit to increase its strength to 3, then pay 1 credit to break the "End the Run" subroutine on a Wall of Static, which is a "Barrier" ICE. You could not use Corroder to break the subroutines on Shadow, because Shadow is a "Sentry" ICE, and Corroder can't do anything against Sentry subroutines.)

adjacentbeastman wrote:
if you DOESN'T have the strenght, equal or more than the ice and the subroutines trigger, do i pass the ice and can go to the next piece of ice or does the run end?

or does the run only ends, when a subroutine says so?
A run only ends when an "End the Run" subroutine executes (i.e., is not broken). To again use Shadow as an example, Shadow has two subroutines:
-> The Corp gains 2 credits.
-> Trace(3) - If successful, give the Runner 1 tag.

If the Runner is unable (or unwilling; you don't have to break subroutines if you don't want to, although it's usually a good idea) to break either of those subroutines, they will execute in that order: the Corp will gain two credits, and the trace will begin. Then, because the Run has not ended, the Runner will continue to the next piece of ICE (or, if Shadow was the last piece of ICE, the Runner will access the server).
 
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Chris
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thanks for your quick and very detailed answers!!
thank you

 
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B C Z
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Another way to think of things... Walk with me.

You are a thief. You have three tools that you carry:

1) Sword - only usable to kill guards
2) Lockpicks - only usable to pick locks
3) Climbing Equipment - only usable to scale walls

You cannot use one tool on the other two obstacles, in other words:
Swords can't help you get through a lock or climb a wall.
Lockpicks can't help you scale a wall or defeat a guard.
Climbing Equipment can't help you get through a lock or defeat a guard.

Your tools may vary some. One thief might have Climbing Equipment of Learning that maintains its boosts after using it during this mission. Another thief might have basic climbing equipment that has to be deployed for each wall. One thief's sword might be a +5 Vorpal Blade that is easy to defeat Guards with while another might have a sharpened Lead Pipe.

You get the idea.

Every tool has its own 'strength' rating. It's possible to boost the strength rating of a tool with resources. Abstractly this is the extra training or consumables or whatever that you 'happen to have' available in order to overcome the obstacle. Not all tools can be boosted, but a tool will say if it can be, and how much it costs. In order to not get too bogged down, we treat these boosting resources as GOLD nuggets.

We want to get into the Evil Wizard's compound...

So now we have obstacles that the evil wizard deploys to stop us.

Locked Doors in Corridors... I'll need my Lockpicks.
Tall Walls... Break out the Climbing Equipment.
A Guard that inflicts damage... Break out the Sword.

SOME of these Obstacles will STOP my progress if I don't overcome the obstacle. If I cannot scale the wall, my mission is over. If I cannot pick the lock, I cannot continue.

OTHER of these Obstacles will slow me down or do other things but will not necessarily STOP me. For example a Guard could just inflict damage as I run past him if I don't defeat him. I am not STOPPED, but I have suffered an effect (damage) because I didn't take out the guard first. Any time an Obstacle does not say 'STOP!', then you may continue after encountering the Obstacle.

SOME of these Obstacles can also be overcome by directly spending extra TIME (a second resource besides GOLD). If an Obstacle can be overcome this way, it will indicate it on the card. No TOOL is needed for these Obstacles if you choose to spend the TIME, but you can use a TOOL normally if you prefer.

From this type of explanation...
It should be clear that if your tool doesn't 'work' on the Obstacle, that they cannot interact...

That if you do not have the resources to let your tool overcome the Obstacle that you suffer the effects of the Obstacle...

That on some Obstacles the Resource you spend may be TIME instead of GOLD.

That if an obstacle doesn't actually STOP you, that you can continue if you want to...
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Peter O
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You just created a whole new spin-off!
 
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B C Z
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tranenturm wrote:
You just created a whole new spin-off!


There was talk of a similar construct as a fan-based revival of O:NR before A:NR was announced.

Now I'm happy to just let FFG do it and keep the theme.

-=-=-

But if the imagery of a fantasy thief with his tool kit helps people understand the game... Good.
 
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