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Subject: Inflammatory statement about brokenness. rss

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Kevin Ice
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Hopefully this doesn't end up as a flamewar, and I apologize if its been covered already. KOT isn't my type of game and I only did a quick look at the forums for this topic.

The last few times I've played KOT I have done nothing but try to roll as many hits as possible, keeping health as well if I need it. I would also get out of Tokyo at the first opportunity. When I started to do this strategy, I started to win most my games, and none of the ones I lost were decided by points.

I think points are only a possible win if the group as a whole is trying to get points. One or two people bashing away will change that. I can usually come up with multiple hits on a turn if thats all I'm rolling for. Before long, the group I was playing with started to bash away and give up on points. The games got really boring, and would be over really quick.

I would like to hear from people who have played more than me, especially from people who have run this strategy and have a different view on the balance.
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Paul Hackman
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In a 4+ player game how would all the players attacking one another stop the one player going for points? If I stay out of Tokyo and just focus on points and cards while the other players keep knocking each other out of Tokyo before they can attack the field, then I never take any damage until I'm ready to make my final push for 20 points and enter with 10 health.

Not saying this is a particularly fun strategy, but I'm not sure why everyone would go the attack route.
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Jeff Dunford
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ktice wrote:
Hopefully this doesn't end up as a flamewar, and I apologize if its been covered already. KOT isn't my type of game and I only did a quick look at the forums for this topic.

The last few times I've played KOT I have done nothing but try to roll as many hits as possible, keeping health as well if I need it. I would also get out of Tokyo at the first opportunity. When I started to do this strategy, I started to win most my games, and none of the ones I lost were decided by points.

I think points are only a possible win if the group as a whole is trying to get points. One or two people bashing away will change that. I can usually come up with multiple hits on a turn if thats all I'm rolling for. Before long, the group I was playing with started to bash away and give up on points. The games got really boring, and would be over really quick.

I would like to hear from people who have played more than me, especially from people who have run this strategy and have a different view on the balance.


Sometimes that's how it goes. Other times, while 2 or 3 players bash each other only keeping hits, somebody else stays out of Tokyo and racks up points by keeping 3's and getting cards like Herbivore. Other times, somebody saves up some energy and grabs Nova Breath, and then easily wins the game via damage while other players were on auto-pilot, keeping hits and ignoring energy.

Also, the game is symmetric, so even if you think an attacking autopilot strategy is the best, there's no reason other players can't do the same thing. Thus, the game is not "broken" by any definition that I'm aware of.

My girlfriend usually goes for "only keep hits", too. However, in a recent game, she kept rolling three 3's on her first roll - and would end up with four or five 3's by the end of her turn. She eventually purchased Herbivore, never dealt damage to anyone, and was on the verge of winning (almost certain on her next turn). Knowing this, other players outside Tokyo started buying "discard" cards that dealt damage to all players. The players in Tokyo kept only hits. With everyone working together, we were able to kill her (and several other monsters in the process) before it got to her turn. The 2 remaining monsters were left with < 3 hit points each, and the game ended shortly after that. But if it wasn't for cards that could do direct damage, she would have easily won by points.
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Kevin Ice
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pomomojo wrote:
In a 4+ player game how would all the players attacking one another stop the one player going for points? If I stay out of Tokyo and just focus on points and cards while the other players keep knocking each other out of Tokyo before they can attack the field, then I never take any damage until I'm ready to make my final push for 20 points and enter with 10 health.

Not saying this is a particularly fun strategy, but I'm not sure why everyone would go the attack route.


Well as I see it there just isn't enough time for points, especially when staying out of Tokyo. If everyone is taking 3 or 4 hits a turn in Tokyo, the games going to be over pretty quickly. At any rate, I don't think a balanced approach will work unless everyone is going that route.

Also there is no way to stay out of Tokyo, you will inevitably roll an attack when you don't want to.

Quote:
Also, the game is symmetric, so even if you think an attacking autopilot strategy is the best, there's no reason other players can't do the same thing. Thus, the game is not "broken" by any definition that I'm aware of.


This is what I was describing my game devolved into. Not fun at all, just mindlessness - no decisions involved with the winner being determined entirely by dice rolling.
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Alex Brown
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Its important to realize attacking is better the less players there are, so if you're playing 2er or 3er I think claws are a lot better simply because you have less health to deplete on the other players .

The metrics in King of Tokyo are points, energy, hits and health. They relate differently to each other in different parts of the game.

When everyone is far from winning, ENERGY is at its most valuable. It allows for powerful cards that subvert the balance of the basic metrics and 'value-adds' to dice or Tokyo.

While at high life and low points, hearts and 1s are useless. This means successful early rolls are either about energy, sets of 2s or 3s or deciding its time to hit someone.

Hitting people has the most risk. This is because the further you are away from 20, and the higher opponent life totals are, the less valuable the rewards for staying in Tokyo are. In short, Tokyo is 'fun' to hold but doesn't really become strategically powerful until a win condition is in sight.

I've played a tonne (~100 games) and the game tends to follow this narrative:

*try to roll energy
*if 2s or 3s come up go for sets over energy
*reroll all claws!

Once a player pulls ahead in ablilities or points, players have to decide if they can afford to keep accumulating points and energy or need to start attacking.



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The Other Tom
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ktice wrote:
KOT isn't my type of game


All we needed to know. Thanks.
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Kevin Ice
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Alex Brown wrote:
Its important to realize attacking is better the less players there are, so if you're playing 2er or 3er I think claws are a lot better simply becaus you have less health to deplete on the other players .

The metrics in King of Tokyo are points, energy, hits and health. They relate differently to each other in different parts of the game.

When everyone is far from winning, ENERGY is at its most valuable. It allows for powerful cards that subvert the balance of the basic metrics and 'value-adds' to dice or Tokyo.

While at high life and low points, hearts and 1s are useless. This means successful early rolls are either about energy, sets of 2s or 3s or deciding its time to hit someone.

Hitting people has the most risk. This is because the further you are away from 20, and the jigher opponent life totals are, the less valuable the rewards for staying in Tokyo are. In short, Tokyo is 'fun' to hold but doesn't really become strategically powerful until a win condition is in sight.

I've played a tonne (~100 games) and the game tends to follow this narrative:

*try to roll energy
*if 2s or 3s come up go for sets over energy
*reroll all claws!

Once a player pulls ahead in ablilities or points, players have to decide if they can afford to keep accumulating points and energy or need to. E attacking.


That works if thats the general nature of the group, for sure. But try my strategy next time, I'd be very curious to hear how it goes.

Reroll everything but claws, I don't care if you roll 3 3s. Only keep claws and health if you need it. Spend all energy rolled on your last roll on cards that either prevent damage to yourself or hurt other people more. Bail out of Tokyo automatically the first time you're hit.
 
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Donnie Clark
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Our group has point wins quite regularly. Typically there are one or two people who prefer the point gain approach and will generally stay out of the dust-up that happens between monsters fighting over Tokyo. Having mixed strategy at the table doesn't really seem to affect the outcomes to one side or the other.

This isn't a game that I eyeball too closely though. KoT is just plain fun and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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ktice wrote:
Hopefully this doesn't end up as a flamewar, and I apologize if its been covered already. KOT isn't my type of game and I only did a quick look at the forums for this topic.

The last few times I've played KOT I have done nothing but try to roll as many hits as possible, keeping health as well if I need it. I would also get out of Tokyo at the first opportunity. When I started to do this strategy, I started to win most my games, and none of the ones I lost were decided by points.

I think points are only a possible win if the group as a whole is trying to get points. One or two people bashing away will change that. I can usually come up with multiple hits on a turn if thats all I'm rolling for. Before long, the group I was playing with started to bash away and give up on points. The games got really boring, and would be over really quick.

I would like to hear from people who have played more than me, especially from people who have run this strategy and have a different view on the balance.


You're just a victim of group think. If everyone tries to get out of Tokyo as quickly as possible, winning by points is the easiest way to win unless all the power cards benefit attacking.
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Chris G
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I lost the first few games of chess I played too.
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Nathan Rhodes
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kryyst wrote:
I lost the first few games of chess I played too.


Are you comparing King of Tokyo to chess?
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Jesse Carrasco
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I've only played the game about five or six times but every time the game has been won by someone just sitting outside of Tokyo and rolling for points (eventually getting to 20 before someone actually gets knocked out of the game). Most people don't even bother going for the cards, instead either rolling for points or rolling for claws. But the winner has always been by getting 20 points first.
 
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Alex Brown
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OP: Ultimately i think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. I understand what you are saying and there are frequent situations where just going for claws is best.

However, the replayability of the game comes from what you do when your first roll isn't ideal. That's the balance between energy, points and claws/hearts.

There are cards that tilt attacking in your favor. If I was playing against your strategy I would have to decide if those cards were out and if I could afford the time to accumulate the energy to get them.

If they weren't out, I would have to decide whether the VP for staying around in Tokyo was worth it while I was getting hit.

Sometimes neither of those are true and attacking is good.

However, in my experience, the cards are nearly always better to go for at the start. Often one player rolls more energy, and it's up to the other players to use points or claws to stake their claim, all the while pulling little bits of energy to buy cards that suit attacking, points, or minor variations.
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Anson Bischoff
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Going with your strategy, lets assume that in a game everyone is going for fight except for one person going for points. Presumably, the fighters are going to slowly wear each other down and then finally kill each other until one of them is left (who will likely be low on life). At this point, the person going for points has far more points than the other player and full life. Whether he goes for points or not at this point is up to him, but he may just as likely start fighting now since he has more life than the "winner" of the fighters.

Sure in this example the game ends with points not mattering, but the person who went for points is most likely to win.

Given this, more people should start going for points since it is now the "best" strategy.

As more people go for points, the fight takes longer, allowing people to win with points.

Presto! The game is now balanced.
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Jeff Dunford
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biscuits409 wrote:
Going with your strategy, lets assume that in a game everyone is going for fight except for one person going for points. Presumably, the fighters are going to slowly wear each other down and then finally kill each other until one of them is left (who will likely be low on life). At this point, the person going for points has far more points than the other player and full life. Whether he goes for points or not at this point is up to him, but he may just as likely start fighting now since he has more life than the "winner" of the fighters.

Sure in this example the game ends with points not mattering, but the person who went for points is most likely to win.

Given this, more people should start going for points since it is now the "best" strategy.

As more people go for points, the fight takes longer, allowing people to win with points.

Presto! The game is now balanced.


Except that the guy going for points won't have full life. He'll get hit in the crossfire. But at least he should have more health than the players fighting it out.
 
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iNano78 wrote:
biscuits409 wrote:
Going with your strategy, lets assume that in a game everyone is going for fight except for one person going for points. Presumably, the fighters are going to slowly wear each other down and then finally kill each other until one of them is left (who will likely be low on life). At this point, the person going for points has far more points than the other player and full life. Whether he goes for points or not at this point is up to him, but he may just as likely start fighting now since he has more life than the "winner" of the fighters.

Sure in this example the game ends with points not mattering, but the person who went for points is most likely to win.

Given this, more people should start going for points since it is now the "best" strategy.

As more people go for points, the fight takes longer, allowing people to win with points.

Presto! The game is now balanced.


Except that the guy going for points won't have full life. He'll get hit in the crossfire. But at least he should have more health than the players fighting it out.


Why would he get hit in the crossfire?

Player A attacks, goes into Tokyo.
Player B attacks, hits only player A, goes into Tokyo.
Player C attacks, hits only player B, goes into Tokyo.
Player D chills, gets some points.
Player A then goes on to attack Player C, goes into Tokyo
Rinse and repeat.

Where is the damage to Player D?
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Fernando Robert Yu
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ktice wrote:
Hopefully this doesn't end up as a flamewar, and I apologize if its been covered already. KOT isn't my type of game and I only did a quick look at the forums for this topic.

The last few times I've played KOT I have done nothing but try to roll as many hits as possible, keeping health as well if I need it. I would also get out of Tokyo at the first opportunity. When I started to do this strategy, I started to win most my games, and none of the ones I lost were decided by points.

I think points are only a possible win if the group as a whole is trying to get points. One or two people bashing away will change that. I can usually come up with multiple hits on a turn if thats all I'm rolling for. Before long, the group I was playing with started to bash away and give up on points. The games got really boring, and would be over really quick.

I would like to hear from people who have played more than me, especially from people who have run this strategy and have a different view on the balance.


How many players were there in your games? The more there are the harder it is to win by KO'ng everyone. In my games most of the victories were by VP's. Even if a couple went for all claws it's not easy to kill everyone if you have 5 opponents, since you can't target people specifically in the game.
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Points are for sissys.

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Nathan Rhodes
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murksofus wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
biscuits409 wrote:
Going with your strategy, lets assume that in a game everyone is going for fight except for one person going for points. Presumably, the fighters are going to slowly wear each other down and then finally kill each other until one of them is left (who will likely be low on life). At this point, the person going for points has far more points than the other player and full life. Whether he goes for points or not at this point is up to him, but he may just as likely start fighting now since he has more life than the "winner" of the fighters.

Sure in this example the game ends with points not mattering, but the person who went for points is most likely to win.

Given this, more people should start going for points since it is now the "best" strategy.

As more people go for points, the fight takes longer, allowing people to win with points.

Presto! The game is now balanced.


Except that the guy going for points won't have full life. He'll get hit in the crossfire. But at least he should have more health than the players fighting it out.


Why would he get hit in the crossfire?

Player A attacks, goes into Tokyo.
Player B attacks, hits only player A, goes into Tokyo.
Player C attacks, hits only player B, goes into Tokyo.
Player D chills, gets some points.
Player A then goes on to attack Player C, goes into Tokyo
Rinse and repeat.

Where is the damage to Player D?


Player D will inevitably spend his share of time in Tokyo. He can't completely avoid claws.
 
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Paul Hackman
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ktice wrote:
pomomojo wrote:
In a 4+ player game how would all the players attacking one another stop the one player going for points? If I stay out of Tokyo and just focus on points and cards while the other players keep knocking each other out of Tokyo before they can attack the field, then I never take any damage until I'm ready to make my final push for 20 points and enter with 10 health.

Not saying this is a particularly fun strategy, but I'm not sure why everyone would go the attack route.


Well as I see it there just isn't enough time for points, especially when staying out of Tokyo. If everyone is taking 3 or 4 hits a turn in Tokyo, the games going to be over pretty quickly. At any rate, I don't think a balanced approach will work unless everyone is going that route.

Also there is no way to stay out of Tokyo, you will inevitably roll an attack when you don't want to.

Quote:
Also, the game is symmetric, so even if you think an attacking autopilot strategy is the best, there's no reason other players can't do the same thing. Thus, the game is not "broken" by any definition that I'm aware of.


This is what I was describing my game devolved into. Not fun at all, just mindlessness - no decisions involved with the winner being determined entirely by dice rolling.


Well, if you happen to roll a claw and enter Tokyo you get a point, so not a big deal, then you can leave on the next turn, hopefully with minimal damage.
I guess I haven't found it that easy to roll 4 claws every turn. That seems like the upper limit for me. I'd say 2 claws is a consistent amount of damage.
I don't know. I found that I can get to 20 in maybe 6-7 turns. If I stay out of the fray for 3-4 rounds, then I just have to be able to survive a couple more rounds or if my last surviving opponent has taken considerable damage, I can just finish him off by switching to an attack strategy.

Definitely the game is fragile in that if all players pursue the same strategy the game loses quite a bit of its fun. If all players go for points then it's just dice rolling. If all players go for damage its just dice rolling. But there's a huge advantage for the one player who bucks the trend. If you are dishing out damage and no one is hurting you, then you'll probably win. If you avoid Tokyo like the plague and shoot for 3s while everyone else is scrapping, then you'll be in a very strong position.

This is why the game is at its best with more players. One player tries to break away from the herd and the herd has to adjust and reel them back in. Once the game gets down to 2 players there are usually few decisions left to be made, it's just a dice rolling sprint to the finish at that point.
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Adam Kazimierczak
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Didn't you get the memo?

Winner of Best Family Game, Best Kids' Game, Best Party Game, Best Game to Play with Your Dog and Best Yahtzee Sequel.

Nowhere did it say Best Strategy Game.
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Kevin Ice
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Quote:
How many players were there in your games? The more there are the harder it is to win by KO'ng everyone. In my games most of the victories were by VP's. Even if a couple went for all claws it's not easy to kill everyone if you have 5 opponents, since you can't target people specifically in the game.


All of my games have been with 4 or 5. They've always had at least one person going for points. I found that 3 damage was my average with a range from 2 to 5 pretty consistently.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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murksofus wrote:

Why would he get hit in the crossfire?

Player A attacks, goes into Tokyo.
Player B attacks, hits only player A, goes into Tokyo.
Player C attacks, hits only player B, goes into Tokyo.
Player D chills, gets some points.
Player A then goes on to attack Player C, goes into Tokyo
Rinse and repeat.

Where is the damage to Player D?


Because occasionally (and inevitably) somebody will stay in Tokyo for a round to punish all other monsters. Nothing says "take that" like when you can hit everyone else for 5. And when that happens, player D takes damage.

(I don't think I've ever seen a game where no one got to attack from within Tokyo)
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Jay Levy
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ktice wrote:
Hopefully this doesn't end up as a flamewar, and I apologize if its been covered already. KOT isn't my type of game and I only did a quick look at the forums for this topic.

The last few times I've played KOT I have done nothing but try to roll as many hits as possible, keeping health as well if I need it. I would also get out of Tokyo at the first opportunity. When I started to do this strategy, I started to win most my games, and none of the ones I lost were decided by points.

I think points are only a possible win if the group as a whole is trying to get points. One or two people bashing away will change that. I can usually come up with multiple hits on a turn if thats all I'm rolling for. Before long, the group I was playing with started to bash away and give up on points. The games got really boring, and would be over really quick.

I would like to hear from people who have played more than me, especially from people who have run this strategy and have a different view on the balance.


I don't think the game is as broken as is the way you're playing it ...

The fact is, if all you go for is hits, you're completely missing out on powers and abilities that can radically change the game. All it takes its one person in your group to figure this out and everything will change.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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I've found that in 5+ players and you have 2 consecutive players in Tokyo (1 in Tokyo bay) then there is a realistic chance of players outside Tokyo getting killed due to consecutive attacks. This happened in a couple of 6 player games.

However, I've played the game with 3 different groups, and the greater % of wins have been with VPs. 1 of the groups is composed of warhammer 40k players so they are much more gung ho for attacks, but still not all games are wins due to KOs.

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