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Subject: What do the '+' sign mean on the TEC? rss

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Emery Gallant
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The Terrain Effects Chart is very confusing to me....why do Hills, shellholes, and Wrecks have plus signs (+) before the number? Also, they are in the Unit Type, which I have no clue on either....what is vp-R, and how does this whole Unit Type chart work?

It would be nice if there was something below the chart that explained it. Maybe I just missed it in the rules somewhere.

Thanks!
 
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Ryan
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vp-R = Victory Points - Reduced
vp-D = Victory Points - Destroyed

I believe the "Unit Type" chart is actually a VP chart so you can determine the degree of victory between two factions.

The +1 on the Wreck counter notes that units in the same hex as a Wreck gain +1 to their defensive value. The -1 on a Wreck counter notes that the Wreck increases the movement point cost of the hex by 1. Although confusingly this is noted by a +1 in the chart in the rulebook. See page 19 for Wreck counter information. These modifiers are also represented on the chart you are referring to.

The same applies to Shellholes, Hills, and any other terrain or markers. Do note that the Shellholes +1 (yellow) defensive value bonus applies only to units susceptible to HE fire.

If you are unsure about a value on a Wreck or Shellholes counter, grab a unit counter and see what location on the unit counter the value on the administrative counter corresponds to. Make sense?
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Emery Gallant
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Ryanmobile wrote:
vp-R = Victory Points - Reduced
vp-D = Victory Points - Destroyed

I believe the "Unit Type" chart is actually a VP chart so you can determine the degree of victory between two factions.

The +1 on the Wreck counter notes that units in the same hex as a Wreck gain +1 to their defensive value. The -1 on a Wreck counter notes that the Wreck increases the movement point cost of the hex by 1. Although confusingly this is noted by a +1 in the chart in the rulebook. See page 19 for Wreck counter information. These modifiers are also represented on the chart you are referring to.

The same applies to Shellholes, Hills, and any other terrain or markers. Do note that the Shellholes +1 (yellow) defensive value bonus applies only to units susceptible to HE fire.

If you are unsure about a value on a Wreck or Shellholes counter, grab a unit counter and see what location on the unit counter the value on the administrative counter corresponds to. Make sense?


Thanks. Yes, I believe I got the gist of what you're saying. My issue wasn't with the counters....it's the chart at the bottom left of page 16, where there are + signs next to numerical designations on both the MP Cost and Defense columns. If there's a Defense column that has the factor, it seems silly to me to alter the MP Cost column to suggest the same thing. reading the MP column for a hill hex, I would assume it costs 2 MP's to enter (denoted as +1), just as it costs 2 MP's to enter a vehicle into an urban hex (denoted as 2 MP's).

Am I looking at this wrong?
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Ryan
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BSG75CAG wrote:
Ryanmobile wrote:
vp-R = Victory Points - Reduced
vp-D = Victory Points - Destroyed

I believe the "Unit Type" chart is actually a VP chart so you can determine the degree of victory between two factions.

The +1 on the Wreck counter notes that units in the same hex as a Wreck gain +1 to their defensive value. The -1 on a Wreck counter notes that the Wreck increases the movement point cost of the hex by 1. Although confusingly this is noted by a +1 in the chart in the rulebook. See page 19 for Wreck counter information. These modifiers are also represented on the chart you are referring to.

The same applies to Shellholes, Hills, and any other terrain or markers. Do note that the Shellholes +1 (yellow) defensive value bonus applies only to units susceptible to HE fire.

If you are unsure about a value on a Wreck or Shellholes counter, grab a unit counter and see what location on the unit counter the value on the administrative counter corresponds to. Make sense?


Thanks. Yes, I believe I got the gist of what you're saying. My issue wasn't with the counters....it's the chart at the bottom left of page 16, where there are + signs next to numerical designations on both the MP Cost and Defense columns. If there's a Defense column that has the factor, it seems silly to me to alter the MP Cost column to suggest the same thing. reading the MP column for a hill hex, I would assume it costs 2 MP's to enter (denoted as +1), just as it costs 2 MP's to enter a vehicle into an urban hex (denoted as 2 MP's).

Am I looking at this wrong?


I think I understand your confusion. The reason for the +1 MP modifiers for Hills, Shellholes, and Wrecks is that the MP cost of each hex is determined by the aggregate of the terrain or battlefield features present in the hex. Woods, Urban, Crop, and Clear hexes are the "core" features. Hills are usually present only in clear hexes, but in one instance (see below) Hill & Woods occupy the same hex. Additionally, markers such as Shellholes and Wrecks modify MP cost. A chart noting every possible combination would be more cumbersome to use. So I think it was easier (and allows more flexibility) for the designer to have "core" terrain with a flat MP cost and "stackable" terrain/features which would add a MP cost to whatever "core" terrain it occupied a hex with.

Your example:

BSG75CAG wrote:
I would assume it costs 2 MP's to enter (denoted as +1), just as it costs 2 MP's to enter a vehicle into an urban hex (denoted as 2 MP's).


is correct for the situation you proposed. But what about hex (V11), which is a Woods hex on a Hill edge hex? The MP would be 3 for that Hill hex. Also the Urban hex (J6) also contains shellholes. So that would have a MP of 3 whereas each other Urban hex has a MP of 2.

While these instances/exceptions are only a couple out of the entirety of the whole board, it would add more lines to the TEC to note the additional terrain combinations with a flat MP value. Also, I think it gives the designer some flexibility in the future should he design more maps where woods/hill edge or hill urban/hill edge may be more prominent.

Does that make any sense? If I didn't address your point let me know. I may exhibit an unflattering density at times and miss the obvious. Usually caused by loud children training for the 2024 Olympics nearby on my furniture & curtains. Also apologies for my verbose nature. Which is why I keep away from writing reviews. I'd lose my readers after the 1st block wall of text.

By the way, nice handle and avatar Emery!

Edited to reorganize & illustrate my points better.
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Emery Gallant
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Thanks, Ryan....that does make much more sense now. I guess I was in the neighborhood of the answer, but just couldn't put it all together. Your description was awesome.

I hope you don't mind but, I posted your answers in my forums' Q&A thread for the scenario we just started on Military Wargaming Forum....yiu can see it here http://www.militarywargaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=885&p=9...

And thanks for the compliment....I LOVE Battlestar Galactica, and especially the new re-imagined series. I had such withdrawal that I ended up designing my own miniatures game! See here....http://www.militarywargaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=173&si...

If you're interested, check out my Colonial Viper model build here....http://www.kiwimodeller.com/index.php/forum/44-follow-as-i-b.... I even made myself the pilot, LOL. The concept behind the model is that it is a recon Viper, hence the dirt from flying low atmospheric and asteroid clusters. I scratch built a recycle camer pod on the underside nose. The Viper is from a time well before The Fall.

I'm hopeless!
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Ryan
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Thanks Emery for your kind words both here and on the military wargaming website. I didn't even know that existed prior to your post, but now I have bookmarked it. And just to be clear, all that text is my opinion, hopefully Petre won't think I'm too far off base with my thoughts on why he designed those mechanisms they way he did.

By the way, I think NW68 is a very fun game. My limited play time has shown the same scenario play out very differently each time depending on the tactics used the uncertainty of the chit draw & dice.

As for your BSG comments, I've also really enjoyed the new (cancelled) series. I'm still 4 episodes or so away from finishing it up. I didn't start watching until a couple years ago. Your do it yourself hexagonal map board is great. I also battle with my wife about keeping those old countersheets the hexes are punched from. Usually I have to punch them when she's not looking and sneak them under the organizer! Nice job with your Viper as well. Modelling and painting is above my skill level or patience for the time being.

Ryan

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