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Subject: LORE rss

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José San Miguel
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sdiberar wrote:
Right before ICE lost the license, they were working on a streamlined 2nd edition of the game (called LoRE: Lord of the Rings Expandable card game). I have the complete spoiler text and rules from an old mailing list and made proxies for most of the cards (I think the art files I made is lost, but I still have the printouts.) I planned on further streamlining the game to get an ARDA-like experience. I should dig up those files and see what can be salvaged.
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Eagles wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
Right before ICE lost the license, they were working on a streamlined 2nd edition of the game (called LoRE: Lord of the Rings Expandable card game). I have the complete spoiler text and rules from an old mailing list and made proxies for most of the cards (I think the art files I made is lost, but I still have the printouts.) I planned on further streamlining the game to get an ARDA-like experience. I should dig up those files and see what can be salvaged.


I for one would love to see what you find and/or come up with.

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IirionClaus wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
Right before ICE lost the license, they were working on a streamlined 2nd edition of the game (called LoRE: Lord of the Rings Expandable card game). I have the complete spoiler text and rules from an old mailing list and made proxies for most of the cards (I think the art files I made is lost, but I still have the printouts.) I planned on further streamlining the game to get an ARDA-like experience. I should dig up those files and see what can be salvaged.

I remember reading about it back in the day but did not know the rules and the spoiler were ever released! Any chance you could dig these files and email them to me? I would love to witness that little piece of gaming history.
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Jose-san wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
Right before ICE lost the license, they were working on a streamlined 2nd edition of the game (called LoRE: Lord of the Rings Expandable card game). I have the complete spoiler text and rules from an old mailing list and made proxies for most of the cards (I think the art files I made is lost, but I still have the printouts.) I planned on further streamlining the game to get an ARDA-like experience. I should dig up those files and see what can be salvaged.


This might be interesting to you as well:

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16...
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IirionClaus wrote:
Jose-san wrote:
This might be interesting to you as well:

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16...

My friend, you are a walking archive of the Council of Elrond Do you happen to recall any threads about the potential of rebooting the game with a different them?
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Jose-san wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
Jose-san wrote:
This might be interesting to you as well:

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16...

My friend, you are a walking archive of the Council of Elrond Do you happen to recall any threads about the potential of rebooting the game with a different them?


I don't recall a specific thread, but this has been discussed from time to time and deemed impossible. MECCG is buried under a copyright hell (ICE, Tolkien Enterprises, the artists...).
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IirionClaus wrote:
Jose-san wrote:
I don't recall a specific thread, but this has been discussed from time to time and deemed impossible. MECCG is buried under a copyright hell (ICE, Tolkien Enterprises, the artists...).

Everything Middle Earth related, yes. The mechanics cannot be copyrighted, though. Hence the idea of a reboot with a different theme.

(By the way, the art can be used if you prove it's not a Tolkien related, I talked to the current copyright holders about that)
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sdiberar wrote:
Jose-san wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
Right before ICE lost the license, they were working on a streamlined 2nd edition of the game (called LoRE: Lord of the Rings Expandable card game). I have the complete spoiler text and rules from an old mailing list and made proxies for most of the cards (I think the art files I made is lost, but I still have the printouts.) I planned on further streamlining the game to get an ARDA-like experience. I should dig up those files and see what can be salvaged.

This might be interesting to you as well:

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16...

That's an interesting project, but I don't use GCCG. I'll download the files and glean what I can.

I did find my project files for LoRE. As I think it over, I think it would be bad form for me to release the files into the wild, since they are the proprietary work of someone else. I may make available my revisions to them, which are my own additional personal work (I attempted to streamline the game further, and also reduce the deckbuilding component to be more Arda-like, before Arda-like existed mind you).

Some of the 2nd edition revisions were quite substantial, I'm not sure the player base would be ready for it (limit of two companies, for instance, many revisions to avatar rules, a "reserve" pile, etc.) I will see about posting a summary (as a new thread), which I don't think would violate the rights of the creators, but still provide some fuel for thoughts about revision to the game.
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IirionClaus wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
I did find my project files for LoRE. As I think it over, I think it would be bad form for me to release the files into the wild, since they are the proprietary work of someone else. I may make available my revisions to them, which are my own additional personal work (I attempted to streamline the game further, and also reduce the deckbuilding component to be more Arda-like, before Arda-like existed mind you).

Disappointing, but I understand your reasoning.

sdiberar wrote:
Some of the 2nd edition revisions were quite substantial, I'm not sure the player base would be ready for it (limit of two companies, for instance, many revisions to avatar rules, a "reserve" pile, etc.) I will see about posting a summary (as a new thread), which I don't think would violate the rights of the creators, but still provide some fuel for thoughts about revision to the game.

Please do, I would love to hear what LoRE did right and what it did wrong, in your opinion.
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sdiberar wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
Some of the 2nd edition revisions were quite substantial, I'm not sure the player base would be ready for it (limit of two companies, for instance, many revisions to avatar rules, a "reserve" pile, etc.) I will see about posting a summary (as a new thread), which I don't think would violate the rights of the creators, but still provide some fuel for thoughts about revision to the game.

Please do, I would love to hear what LoRE did right and what it did wrong, in your opinion.

Further clarification: I can't seem to find my file of the beta LoRE rules. I have a notes file with a summary of changes, but I emended it with my own changes and can't necessarily recall which were mine. I have a file with all the cards for the proposed base set labeled "original" but I have to admit it's suspect as to whether I modified that as well...

It will take a bit more to untangle and my time is limited, but if I do come up with something I will post it.

I'm searching the internet for any reference to LoRE, and all I've found is some brief discussions on the METW Yahoo group. The last post concerning it re-iterated the NDA and Craig O'Brien's insistence it was not in the public domain.
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sdiberar wrote:
Just found this. Apparently at the last ICE-supported tournaments, someone ran a "LoRE" style session with the following rules. By my memory, these were the basic changes, though there was a lot of other stuff as well.

***

There will be special non-sanctioned tournament held on Friday, for
those with invitiations to the Semis. As some of you may know, we are
currently in the process of revising MECCG, and this tournament will
showcase some of the new rules we are currently playtesting for the
revision. The tournament will be run as a Wizard only tournament
(hazards and hero resources from any set may be used), with the
following additional rules:

* Active Conditions: Characters may not be used as active conditions
during the movement/hazard or site phases unless they are in the
currently phasing company.

* Calling the End Game: The End Game (or the Free Council) may be called
by either player if they have at least 20 MPs. The End Game is
automatically called after both play decks have been exhausted (at the
end of the turn).

* Characters: Character MPs are ignored (except for negative MPs). You
may bring a character into play at a Haven or his home site, regarless
of the position of your Wizard. To bring a character into play, you must
have enough influence available to control the character.

* Character Draft: The draft is no longer simultaneous. Before the
draft, dice are rolled by each player. The high roller choose whether to
draft the first character or take the first turn. Once the first drafter
is determined, players draft in alternation until the normal
requirements are met. Wizards may be drafted, counting as 0 mind
characters.

* Company Limit: You may only have two companies. Characters with Await
the Advent of Allies played on them do not count against the two company
limit.

* Discards: All players must discard face up.

* Extra Strikes: Extra strikes now give a -1 to prowess *and* a -1 to
body. No character's body may be lowered to less than 6 by excess
strikes.

* Gold Rings: You may tap a sage to test a gold ring. If you test a ring
in this fashion, results indicating the One Ring are ignored.

* Influence Attempts: You may not make an influence attempt against an
opponent's resource unless you have a copy of that resource in your
hand, and reveal it for the influence attempt.

* Minor Items: One minor item may be played after entering any site,
from the sideboard, hand, or discard pile. Tap a character to play the
minor item on that character. Minor items that may be discarded for an
effect may not be played from the discard pile, and Star-glass may not
be played from the sideboard.

* Movement: You may not use starter movement, and you may only move
three regions per turn.

* Reserve Pile: There will be a reserve pile for each player. All
sideboarded cards, and any other cards that would normally be shuffled
into the deck, go into the reserve pile. Your free discard during the
end of turn phase may go into the reserve pile if you wish. After your
turn, shuffle your reserve pile into your deck (as your opponent is
planning his turn).

* Sideboarding: You may not sideboard into the discard pile or into the
play deck. Any effect that normally allows sideboarding a card into the
play deck puts that card in the reserve pile instead. When you exhaust
your play deck, you may put five cards from the sideboard into the
reserve pile before reshuffling. However, you may not remove cards from
your deck at that time. Two new ways to sideboard are added. If a
company enters a site and plays no resources, you may tap one character
in that company to sideboard one resource into the reserve pile. If an
opponent's company moves and you play no hazards on them, then you may
sideboard one hazard into the reserve pile.

* Starting Site: You may start at Rivendell, Lorien, Minas Tirith, or
Edhellond.

* Weakest Link Method: This will not be used. Ties will stand, and each
player will gain 3 tournament points.
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José San Miguel
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More on LORE from Coleman Charlton:

TOMN: Concerning ICE's plans with the revised Middle Earth card game that has been discussed, what
are your objectives?

Coleman: Currently, ICE is discussing releasing the revision (LORE CG, the Lord of the Rings Expandable
Card Game) in late summer or the fall of 1999. Remember, all of these comments are just possibilities – we have not made any final decisions yet.

The revision would use the same card titles and card backs as the current game, so that current players could use existing cards along with copies of the revised card text.

Our primary objective is to make the game more accessible to a larger body of players. This would be particularly important with the LOR movie coming in 2000.

We want to maintain the good features of the current version, while streamlining and simplifying certain
elements. If we can do this, the game would be: easier to learn, fun, playable in 30-45 minutes, and errata/rulings free.

The revision would use the “fixed/challenge deck” format and each box (slightly larger than two decks side by side) would include a map/board that would handle all movement (eliminating site cards) and perhaps dice.

Some of the major changes being considered are: Map driven movement would be used with site information on the map. Each playable card (e.g., item, information, etc.) would carry its own playability information like factions and allies do now.

We would introduce simplified timing – each action and its effects would be played out in full before
another action could be announced (with exceptions based on keywords on specific “counter” cards). Players would alternate taking actions during movement phases.

General influence and direct influence would be combined into one variable: influence. Current mind values would be rescaled to run from 0 to 3 or 4. Each player would have a base of 6 influence with specific characters contributing more influence. We would remove the concept of followers. You would be limited to a maximum of two companies at one time. Any number of characters could be brought into play each turn with no limitations on the location of your Wizard (now called your main character). You would never be forced to discard a character due to a lack of influence.

We would eliminate on-guard cards, but allowing certain hazard play when any attack is resolved. We would remove long-events and make such card effects text driven. We would change the turn sequence so that cards are only discarded at the end of the turn.

In addition, all cards previously moved or replaced into the draw pile (the old play deck) would be placed in a reserve pile instead. This would eliminate reshuffling except at the end of the turn.

We would reduce the majority of 4+ MP sources to 3 MPs. A number of current rules would become card
driven: different MP types for doubling purposes, influencing an opponent’s characters and resources, etc.

Minor items would be playable from your draw pile, discard pile, or sideboard. Hazard card removal during the organization phase would be standardized. You would always receive +3 towards removal if tapping.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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For what it's worth, I found a printed copy of the beta LoRE rules amongst my papers. Still don't think it's a good idea to release it, but the changes listed in two posts here catch most of it. I don't remember how I got my hands on it, I was never a playtester.

I've been reading the yahoo list from the period right after MECCG was more or less killed, when LoRE was in the offing, before the license was pulled from ICE. It's... interesting ...how hostile the hardcore fans were to any changes to the game, even at the risk of the game dying "forever". And not a little depressing at how much BS Craig O'Brien went through for what, ultimately, was nothing.
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sdiberar wrote:
For what it's worth, I found a printed copy of the beta LoRE rules amongst my papers. Still don't think it's a good idea to release it, but the changes listed in two posts here catch most of it. I don't remember how I got my hands on it, I was never a playtester.


Just out of curiosity. Does the beta rules include the card texts updates?

sdiberar wrote:
I've been reading the yahoo list from the period right after MECCG was more or less killed, when LoRE was in the offing, before the license was pulled from ICE. It's... interesting ...how hostile the hardcore fans were to any changes to the game, even at the risk of the game dying "forever". And not a little depressing at how much BS Craig O'Brien went through for what, ultimately, was nothing.


I can totally see that happening. And I think it's understandable from their (¿our?) point of view. Hardcore MECCG players have invested a lot of time and energy in mastering a difficult game. So, even though the game was doomed (and many of us didn't see that coming), they're very resistant to changes.

In recent years several projects from the MECCG community have faced the same resistance: virtual cards, dreamcards, UEP (unofficial errara proposal), Arda, official errata (only this year the Council of Elrond managed to issue the first official errata since ICE)...
 
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Jose-san wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Does the beta rules include the card texts updates?

Yes, but I had those already.

Quote:
I can totally see that happening. And I think it's understandable from their (¿our?) point of view. Hardcore MECCG players have invested a lot of time and energy in mastering a difficult game. So, even though the game was doomed (and many of us didn't see that coming), they're very resistant to changes.

That's the thing, the writing on the wall was pretty clear, some even planned to form their own decision-making body should ICE drop the game... And they had no problem suggest their own changes. But when official changes were discussed, the vitriol was a bit surprising. There was a big thread about ineffectives strikes, for crying out loud! It just seemed like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Of course LoRE was doomed to fail anyway, at least in its stated goal of bringing in new blood to the CCG. Even simplified, it would have been the most complex CCG I print by an order of magnitude.
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