Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
34 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: A ridiculous scenario of the Runner trying not to steal an agenda rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi there! A coworker and I were doing a thought experiment about a rules corner case and I think we sorted it out completely. He suggested I post the result on here, although I warn you this thread is unlikely to be of any use in a real game. :)

Scenario:
* The Corp is Jinteki: Personal Evolution.
* The Corp has a remote server with a never-exposed agenda installed, plus a rezzed Red Herrings.
* The Runner has already scored 4 agenda points worth of agendas.
* The Runner has 5 credits and zero cards in hand.
* The Runner has just successfully run on the aforementioned remote server. He is about to access cards.

Observations:
* If the Runner accesses the agenda and it's worth 3+ points, he wins the game instantly.
* If the Runner accesses the agenda and it's worth 1-2 points, he loses the game.

Question:
* Can the Runner look at the agenda and decline to steal it based on how many points it is worth?

Answer (I think):
* No, but it's a long story...

We can begin by reminding ourselves that by default, "The Runner cannot decline to steal agendas he accesses." (p18). So on the surface this seems like a silly question.

However, with Red Herrings rezzed on this server, the Runner can only steal the agenda if he has 5 credits to pay. It is my understanding that the additional cost aspect of Red Herrings does not make the stealing any less mandatory, so it is still the case that because the Runner has 5 credits he must pay those 5 and steal the agenda.

The question is, can the Runner, upon discovering the agenda is worth 1-2 points, spend 1 credit to trash Red Herrings and make himself ineligible to steal the agenda?

I think the answer is still "no". P18 of the rules says "When accessing multiple cards, the Runner accesses them one at a time in any order he likes". I take this to mean that the Runner can do either of the following:

* Access the agenda first, whereupon he must pay 5 credits and must steal it.
* Access the upgrade first, paying 1 credit to trash it, making himself ineligible to steal the agenda.

The thing the Runner cannot do is look at the agenda and *then* decide whether to trash the upgrade.

Thoughts? Haha :)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Mills
United States
Los Angeles
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you've interpreted the rules exactly correctly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wesley Chan
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Yep, I agree with you here.

Let's talk about the optimal play for the runner, then.
If there are 0-1 advancement counters on it, then trashing Red Herrings is optimal. You can still access the agenda, but are unable to steal it. However, you know whether it's worth running next turn to steal it. Granted, Biotic Labors will skew this, but seeing as it's Jinteki, highly unlikely.
If there are 2+ counters on it, it's a toss-up. If you have 4 points, you must have scored two PSF/Nisei. Assuming we know this is an agenda and not an ambush, there's a 3/7 chance this is PrioReq. A little less than 50%.

Both these situations preclude that the Corp doesn't already have 5 points. At that point, it's either lose by flatline, or lose by Corp advancement. In a tournament, stealing it and flatlining is the better option, as you get a few extra points.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Siegfried
Japan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While unlikely, I wouldn't call this situation ridiculous. Nor would I call it all that complicated.

The rules are clear that the runner must steal any agenda they access. If there are multiple cards installed, the runner can choose the order he accesses the cards in, but must fully resolve each card before moving on to the next card.

That means that, in your example, if the runner chose to access the face down agenda, he would instantly either win or lose the game, depending on the point value of the agenda.

If he chose to access Red Herrings first, he would have to decide whether or not to trash it before he accessed the face down agenda.

As you surmised, there is no way to see the agenda, find out its only two points and then spend a credit to trash the Red Herrings so you are unable to steal the agenda. The runner will have to roll the dice and see if be gets lucky. If he does not want to gamble, the he should jack out before accessing any cards at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Lindsay
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
It has been ruled that when a runner accesses an agenda with a rezzed Red Herrings, he can refuse to pay the extra credits and therefore not steal it, even if he had more than enough credits to cover the additional cost.

Therefore in this example, the runner could access the agenda first, and if it wasn't something they wanted refuse to pay the additional 5c cost and leave the agenda where it is.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott M.
United States
Winter Springs
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hrrrmmm wrote:
It has been ruled that when a runner accesses an agenda with a rezzed Red Herrings, he can refuse to pay the extra credits and therefore not steal it, even if he had more than enough credits to cover the additional cost.

Therefore in this example, the runner could access the agenda first, and if it wasn't something they wanted refuse to pay the additional 5c cost and leave the agenda where it is.


Where was this ruled?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Lindsay
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Via correspondence with Lukas on the FFG site rules questions link.

The crux of it is the runner cannot refuse to steal an agenda, but they can refuse to pay an additional cost, which results in them then being unable to steal the agenda. I expect this will likely make it's way into a future version of the FAQ.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Huh, so under that ruling, if Jinteki has installed a 1-2 point agenda, he has actually hurt himself by rezzing Red Herrings? That seems disappointing somehow.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hrrrmmm wrote:
Via correspondence with Lukas on the FFG site rules questions link.

The crux of it is the runner cannot refuse to steal an agenda, but they can refuse to pay an additional cost, which results in them then being unable to steal the agenda. I expect this will likely make it's way into a future version of the FAQ.

I would be happier with this ruling if it had been included in the FAQ. It is not obvious which thread at the FF forum contains this conversation. Does it predate the FAQ?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benedetto Loffredo
Italy
Portici (NA)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
Hrrrmmm wrote:
Via correspondence with Lukas on the FFG site rules questions link.

The crux of it is the runner cannot refuse to steal an agenda, but they can refuse to pay an additional cost, which results in them then being unable to steal the agenda. I expect this will likely make it's way into a future version of the FAQ.

I would be happier with this ruling if it had been included in the FAQ. It is not obvious which thread at the FF forum contains this conversation. Does it predate the FAQ?


The ruling about Red Herrings was reported here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10056005#10056005
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the link.

So it looks like that thread happened in September which IIRC is before the official FAQ came out in October. So do we know why this ruling would not have been included? This ruling feels more like errata than a clarification, since it needs to modify text in the core rulebook, not just explain in more depth a single card...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I find the ruling intuitive. Being forced to steal an agenda doesn't necessarily mean being forced to do everything required to steal an agenda. If it did, I would expect it to be stated explicitly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


MUST is a requirement.
MAY would be optional.

p18 of the Rules:
Stealing Agendas
If the Runner accesses an agenda, he steals it and places it
faceup in his score area, resolving any conditional abilities on
the agenda that use the language “When you steal.” While an
agenda is in the Runner’s score area, it adds its agenda points
to his score. The Runner cannot decline to steal agendas he
accesses.


-=-=-

I believe FFG may have to revisit that one.

I submitted a detailed rules question, we'll see what comes of it.


3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noah D

Arlington
Virginia
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
If this is intended, it needs to be in the FAQ, yes
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
astroglide wrote:
I find the ruling intuitive. Being forced to steal an agenda doesn't necessarily mean being forced to do everything required to steal an agenda. If it did, I would expect it to be stated explicitly.


In order to own a dog, you MUST have a license.

In order to obtain a license, you MUST pay $50 to the County.

You just got a dog.

Do you owe the County $50?

I say you do.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:

MUST is a requirement.
MAY would be optional.

If the card said "may pay," runners would say, "thanks but no thanks."

I agree that the wording could still be improved, in both the rules and the card.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
The stuff that dreams are made of...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's very poorly worded. The wording would lead one to believe that stealing the agenda is optional in this circumstance.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samuel Hinz
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

The implication being that you can decide not to pay the 5 and leave the Agenda, then trash red herrings for 1cred. Then run again and take the Agenda.

It would rarely be cheaper that way but it cheapens the card.yuk
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Siegfried
Japan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:
astroglide wrote:
I find the ruling intuitive. Being forced to steal an agenda doesn't necessarily mean being forced to do everything required to steal an agenda. If it did, I would expect it to be stated explicitly.


In order to own a dog, you MUST have a license.

In order to obtain a license, you MUST pay $50 to the County.

You just got a dog.

Do you owe the County $50?

I say you do.

Except now, after you get all the way to the pet shop and find out about the licensing fee, you can choose not to buy the dog and go home empty handed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Hall
United States
Marion
SC - South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
My assumption would have been that the runner has the option since they are paying a cost rather than suffering a penalty, but I can certainly see it being interpreted either way. I don't think "the runner may pay 5..." would have made sense, but something like "the runner may not steal any agenda accessed from this fort unless he or she pays 5 as an additional cost" would have been a bit clearer if the intention was for the payment to be optional.

The wording is basically the same as the original card, and I can't find a ruling on it either. The run flowchart on netrunneronline seems to suggest that paying the cost isn't optional.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
El-ad David Amir
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:
I believe FFG may have to revisit that one.

An errata will be required to fit the interpretation in the link above.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benedetto Loffredo
Italy
Portici (NA)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:


MUST is a requirement.
MAY would be optional.

p18 of the Rules:
Stealing Agendas
If the Runner accesses an agenda, he steals it and places it
faceup in his score area, resolving any conditional abilities on
the agenda that use the language “When you steal.” While an
agenda is in the Runner’s score area, it adds its agenda points
to his score. The Runner cannot decline to steal agendas he
accesses.


-=-=-

I believe FFG may have to revisit that one.

I submitted a detailed rules question, we'll see what comes of it.


Since the ruling comes from Lukas himself, I don't know if he will revert it.

The ruling reported didn't change what you bolded.
The ruling is related to Red Herrings only. It states that the Runner still access the agenda but he may, if he/she wants, not to pay the 5 extra credits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to see it in the FAQ before I play using it because it is not an elaboration on an ambiguous word/phrase, but completely changes the nature of the card.

Also, the text from Lukas seems ambiguous as to whether the proper errata is:
1. Red Herrings is modified to say that it gives the Runner the choice to not steal the agenda.
2. The Runner may, in general, decline to steal agendas which have an additional cost attached. This would include Red Herrings and all future effects which attach costs to stealing.
3. In general, attaching an additional cost to a mandatory action makes it optional. This would be ridiculous though (Archer would be immune to Forged Activation Orders for instance).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Awesome
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Can't read my POKAH FASE
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:


In order to own a dog, you MUST have a license.

In order to obtain a license, you MUST pay $50 to the County.

You just got a dog.

Do you owe the County $50?

I say you do.


If having a license is required to own a dog, and you own a dog, then you already have a license and have already paid the county. (just busting your chops)

But on a more serious note, I would just go with what Lukas said until we get an entry about it in the FAQ. I think it's a bit silly to choose to ignore a ruling given by the guy who writes the FAQ just because it hasn't been put into the FAQ yet.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Keggy wrote:
I think it's a bit silly to choose to ignore a ruling given by the guy who writes the FAQ just because it hasn't been put into the FAQ yet.


I guess that's true. :) I'd still like to understand the intention better though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.