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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Variants

Subject: Tired of having Wedge lose his action to an Academy Pilot? rss

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Greg Lott
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I've been playing this game for a while now, and one thing that I have never liked was that higher skilled pilots are actually at a disadvantage in the sense that they are more likely to have a lower skilled pilot get in their way, thus causing the higher skilled pilot lose it's action. This is completely backwards from the way it SHOULD work. I have a simple fix; all you need is a d10.

Proposed Rule Change
If a ship cannot complete it's movement because doing so would cause it's base to overlap with another ships base, roll a d10. If the value rolled is equal to or greater than the pilots skill, that pilot losses his action for the round.

What do you think? I'm going to try it as house rule as I think it's pretty clean.
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Sean D.
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Try it out, but I think you'll be negating one of the main tactics for Imperial players thus giving the Rebels an unfair advantage.
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K.Y. Wong
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I think the game is fine as it is but here's an alternative idea for what you have in mind.

Instead of depending on the luck of a die, the pilot has the option to continue taking his action but at the cost of taking on a stress token.

Also, the pilot does not have this option if he already has a stress token.
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Christopher Islaub
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My group has adopted one of the alternatives suggested here (an earlier thread)... both pilots involved in the near-collision lose their actions.

All we needed to do was separate the movement and action phases. Easy, and adds no extra book-keeping.

Love the game... and it's great as is, but we had enough discussions about this aspect of the game that we decided to alter the rule.
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Aaron Gelb
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fastg1 wrote:
My group has adopted one of the alternatives suggested here (an earlier thread)... both pilots involved in the near-collision lose their actions.

All we needed to do was separate the movement and action phases. Easy, and adds no extra book-keeping.

Love the game... and it's great as is, but we had enough discussions about this aspect of the game that we decided to alter the rule.


logically makes sense, but doesn't this just punish the higher skilled pilots and/or the player with less ships?
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D P
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fastg1 wrote:
My group has adopted one of the alternatives suggested here (an earlier thread)... both pilots involved in the near-collision lose their actions.

All we needed to do was separate the movement and action phases. Easy, and adds no extra book-keeping.

Love the game... and it's great as is, but we had enough discussions about this aspect of the game that we decided to alter the rule.


By separating the move and action, you then put the later pilot at another disadvantage as the earlier pilot has to commit their action BEFORE the higher pilot even moves and is possibly in range
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Christopher Islaub
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asgelb wrote:
fastg1 wrote:
My group has adopted one of the alternatives suggested here (an earlier thread)... both pilots involved in the near-collision lose their actions.

All we needed to do was separate the movement and action phases. Easy, and adds no extra book-keeping.

Love the game... and it's great as is, but we had enough discussions about this aspect of the game that we decided to alter the rule.


logically makes sense, but doesn't this just punish the higher skilled pilots and/or the player with less ships?


As the official rules currently read, the higher skilled pilot is already penalized. He moves last and, therefore, is the only pilot to lose his action. And the fact that the Imperials can field more ships in any given engagement, it is typically the case that they have a greater number of units free to act and engage at will. Pinning a superior skilled pilot is, under the current rules, a solid Imperial strategy because it typically advantages the Imperials to a greater degree than it does the Rebels.

Rather than adding any additional complexity, we decided this mechanical change would level the playing field without dramatically altering the way the rules work. Now, the initiating party loses their action as well. It's a small change, but decreases the viability (somewhat) of the pinning tactic... one that, as I mentioned previously, advantaged the Imperials more so than the Rebels. As such, the Rebels enjoy an advantage by comparison.
 
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Christopher Islaub
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DeathInc wrote:

By separating the move and action, you then put the later pilot at another disadvantage as the earlier pilot has to commit their action BEFORE the higher pilot even moves and is possibly in range

True statement.

Our limited plays (10-15 games) with this modification have in no way constituted a thorough playtest. I'm not certain how many times this has advantaged the lesser pilot relative to his opponent. It appears that it would be an issue in the initial targeting round of an engagement, to be sure.
 
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John Freybeck
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I don't understand why people are fussing about these rules about higher ranking pilots loosing actions to collisions with lower ranked pilots. Its about skill, and having it or not... doesn't it make sense that if you run into somebody you loose your advantage? I think if Im dumb enough to run Wedge into the back of my Rookie Pilot, I shouldn't get to act, I should have been smart enough to know where all my ships were going to end up in the first place. Altering the rules because you don't like following them is paramount to changing the fundamental mechanics developed for a reason in the first place.
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Christopher Islaub
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m1t1c1s wrote:
I think if Im dumb enough to run Wedge into the back of my Rookie Pilot, I shouldn't get to act, I should have been smart enough to know where all my ships were going to end up in the first place.


I can't speak for the intent of the OP, but your chosen example isn't all that germane to the point I was making. I was, in no way, suggesting that Wedge was being unfairly punished for flying into his wingman. Rather, the post was directed more at collisions between units of different factions.

Apologies for beating what is becoming (or already has become) a dead horse -- I know that I am in the minority on this point -- but near collisions resulting in a lost action for only one of the participating parties makes little sense to me... especially as movement is considered to be simultaneous. True, the actual tabletop movement happens sequentially, but the moves are plotted at the same time. They higher skilled pilot has no opportunity to adjust to the changing landscape...

Instead, Academy Pilot & Wedge plot their moves simultaneously, and then reveal them simultaneously. Academy Pilot makes his move, and takes his action (Focus or Evade will, respectively, improve his offense/defense or defense). Wedge now carries out his pre-plotted move to what was an empty space. And loses his action. Not for any reason other than the limitations of having one set of maneuver templates and limited table space... and that we're attempting to model 3D movement with 2D mechanics.

m1t1c1s wrote:
I don't understand why people are fussing about these rules about higher ranking pilots loosing actions to collisions with lower ranked pilots. Its about skill, and having it or not...

True statement. It's about the skill of the players, not the pilots. A more-skilled player will (typically) overcome the limitations of his units more successfully than will a less-skilled player. No shock there. My issue with this specific rule is that, players' skill being relatively equal, the more skilled pilot is at a disadvantage in this situation. And I find that to be counter-intuitive.

Oh, and as I've seen from several skilled Imperial players, it's oftentimes easier to actively seek to pin your opponent than it is for him/her to evade. Especially considering the numerical advantage enjoyed by the Imperials.

m1t1c1s wrote:
Altering the rules because you don't like following them is paramount to changing the fundamental mechanics developed for a reason in the first place.

This is neither the first nor the last game that players will mod. Ultimately, so long as you're not playing in an officially sanctioned tournament, it's up to those playing the game to decide how they want to play it. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with players discussing potential changes here... it's one of the reasons people come here.
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Tom T
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I found this rule kind of strange, myself. It's a rule that is firmly rooted in a 2D mindset, imposed on a 3D environment, The likelihood of two ships smacking into each other or even getting close enough to interfere with each other in a 3D environment is far less than it occurs in the game. I'm guessing the rule is a gamey option employed in order to prevent arguments over who is in who's way.

The most realistic option IMHO would be to allow ship stands to overlap as the rules do now, but the only consequence is that the two ships are assumed to be one-directly-over-the-other and so cannot interact with each other, i.e. they can't attack each other. Likewise neither blocks the other's line of sight and so does not interfere with the other's actions, movement, or attacks.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it. ;)
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I think you're missing one of the best aspects of this game, bluffing/out thinking you're opponent. You know what maneuvers he can do, so you have to try to guess what he's doing. Remember you can always just fly past him. Love this game due to the bluffing element.

-shnar
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Aaron Gelb
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Why not just flip the order that pilots move?

As it stands, lower pilots move first, higher skilled pilots last.

To me that would make sense if a higher skilled pilot could make changes due to his "higher skill"..but since all moves are plotted at the same time, they should allow the higher skilled pilot to move first.

That way it will be the lower skilled pilots ending their moves on higher skilled pilots, thus the less experienced pilot losing an action, not the higher skilled pilot.


The other way you could do it is have higher skilled pilots lose their action, and the lower skilled pilots get a shaken token.
 
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Greg Lott
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asgelb wrote:
Why not just flip the order that pilots move?

As it stands, lower pilots move first, higher skilled pilots last.

To me that would make sense if a higher skilled pilot could make changes due to his "higher skill"..but since all moves are plotted at the same time, they should allow the higher skilled pilot to move first.

That way it will be the lower skilled pilots ending their moves on higher skilled pilots, thus the less experienced pilot losing an action, not the higher skilled pilot.


The other way you could do it is have higher skilled pilots lose their action, and the lower skilled pilots get a shaken token.


Umm, no. Moving last is a huge advantage.
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Greg Lott
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m1t1c1s wrote:
I don't understand why people are fussing about these rules about higher ranking pilots loosing actions to collisions with lower ranked pilots. Its about skill, and having it or not... doesn't it make sense that if you run into somebody you loose your advantage? I think if Im dumb enough to run Wedge into the back of my Rookie Pilot, I shouldn't get to act, I should have been smart enough to know where all my ships were going to end up in the first place. Altering the rules because you don't like following them is paramount to changing the fundamental mechanics developed for a reason in the first place.


It doesn't make sense that the higher skill pilots are more likely to lose an action than an academy pilot. And that's what happens. The low skill pilots get in the way, and the high skill pilot loses an action.

I'm not missing the bluffing part of the game, it just seems backwards.

And to the guy who mentioned a way to do it without the random nature of dice... I'm American. I like dice.
 
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K.Y. Wong
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ferris1971 wrote:
And to the guy who mentioned a way to do it without the random nature of dice... I'm American. I like dice.

Hey I love dice, but that doesn't make me an American.
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Henning
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This will probably give elite pilots a slightly larger advantage than they paid for, but anyway, here is a simple suggestion of how to solve the issue:

If a pilot ends his move overlapping a ship that has already been moved he follows all the normal rules, except that the ship that has already been moved receives a stress token.

Also note that this does not apply when ships end their moves on ships that have not already moved, as this would be very easy to abuse otherwise.

Maybe this can be abused anyway (thinking about ion tokens...). What do you think?


 
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Aaron Gelb
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Hinnyboy wrote:
This will probably give elite pilots a slightly larger advantage than they paid for, but anyway, here is a simple suggestion of how to solve the issue:

If a pilot ends his move overlapping a ship that has already been moved he follows all the normal rules, except that the ship that has already been moved receives a stress token.

Also note that this does not apply when ships end their moves on ships that have not already moved, as this would be very easy to abuse otherwise.

Maybe this can be abused anyway (thinking about ion tokens...). What do you think?




That could work, haven't tried it.

Or what about this:

If you end on another ships base, move back like normal as per the rules, and then thats it. both ships can still act as normal, just not shoot at each other.
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Aaron Gelb
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ferris1971 wrote:
asgelb wrote:
Why not just flip the order that pilots move?

As it stands, lower pilots move first, higher skilled pilots last.

To me that would make sense if a higher skilled pilot could make changes due to his "higher skill"..but since all moves are plotted at the same time, they should allow the higher skilled pilot to move first.

That way it will be the lower skilled pilots ending their moves on higher skilled pilots, thus the less experienced pilot losing an action, not the higher skilled pilot.


The other way you could do it is have higher skilled pilots lose their action, and the lower skilled pilots get a shaken token.


Umm, no. Moving last is a huge advantage.


I'm not challenging you here, please don't misunderstand me. But how is moving last a huge advantage when only people that move later/last suffer from the disadvantage of ending movement on an already moved ship?

 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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I'll agree that the effect in X-Wing seems counter-intuitive based on other games that deal with fighter-fighter combat. However, I think it's more a matter of the players needing to adjust to the game than the game needing a change.

Activation order is one the more difficult aspects of the game to grasp. It's simple to know when a ship will move...but keeping track of 3-6 ships and being able to plan and predict not only for your ships but also your opponents is the difference between a good and a great player. When it comes to the high skill pilots, players are going to need to anticipate better. if Wedge is facing a bunch of Academy Pilots, he should know that one of the Imperial ploys is to try and keep Wedge from getting his action. Knowing that, Wedge should be planning moves that are going to leave him more in the open.
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Three Headed Monkey
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asgelb wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
asgelb wrote:
Why not just flip the order that pilots move?

As it stands, lower pilots move first, higher skilled pilots last.

To me that would make sense if a higher skilled pilot could make changes due to his "higher skill"..but since all moves are plotted at the same time, they should allow the higher skilled pilot to move first.

That way it will be the lower skilled pilots ending their moves on higher skilled pilots, thus the less experienced pilot losing an action, not the higher skilled pilot.


The other way you could do it is have higher skilled pilots lose their action, and the lower skilled pilots get a shaken token.


Umm, no. Moving last is a huge advantage.


I'm not challenging you here, please don't misunderstand me. But how is moving last a huge advantage when only people that move later/last suffer from the disadvantage of ending movement on an already moved ship?


Because you have more information on the board state, allowing you to make a better decision when it comes to deciding what action to take. If you move first and acquire a lock on a ship, it is possible that that ship could move out of your fire arc. Also, barrel roles are much better on high skill pilots because for sure whether or not you are moving out of an opponent's firing arc, or bringing an enemy ship into yours.

Should you evade or focus? If you know that you cannot shoot at anyone, or you've put yourself in a risky position, an evade is probably better.

A X-Wing may move and remain out of range 3 of a higher skill TIE advanced, disallowing him to acquire a lock. However the TIE then moves into range in his activation and is able to lock on and thus fire his missiles.

Seriously, if you don't understand the advantages you get when activating last and how to exploit them then you might not understand the basic tactics involved in this game.
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Three Headed Monkey
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kingbobb wrote:
I'll agree that the effect in X-Wing seems counter-intuitive based on other games that deal with fighter-fighter combat. However, I think it's more a matter of the players needing to adjust to the game than the game needing a change.

Activation order is one the more difficult aspects of the game to grasp. It's simple to know when a ship will move...but keeping track of 3-6 ships and being able to plan and predict not only for your ships but also your opponents is the difference between a good and a great player. When it comes to the high skill pilots, players are going to need to anticipate better. if Wedge is facing a bunch of Academy Pilots, he should know that one of the Imperial ploys is to try and keep Wedge from getting his action. Knowing that, Wedge should be planning moves that are going to leave him more in the open.

This.

Plan ahead. If you opponent can predict where you are going to move your models then you have lost the game, regardless of how he uses that to his / her advantage.

Try to do something other than drive up the centre towards the mass of TIEs. Keep Wedge on the flanks (he deploys last. Hint hint) to reduce the number of TIEs he has to face personally and so he can fly through and past the TIE train of doom. Be mindful of the position of asteroids try to use them to split up the TIEs so you give yourself more room to move.

Trying to get in the way is just a tactic. There is good counter play, as this behaviour sets up a pattern that you can read and take advantage of yourself. It is a valid tactic and trying to get rid of it is reducing the tactical plays available in this game. Instead of coming up with rules changes to 'fix' this problem, accept it as a tactic and adjust the way you play.

Keep in mind that a large force of cheap TIEs has it's own built in disadvantage of having a harder time avoiding hitting asteroids and their own ships. This, as everything, can be negated by a good player who knows what he is doing. The same applies for the Rebel's inherent disadvantages.
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Kaleb Eubank
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Thematically I understand why academy pilot still gets his action...he never knew wedge was there, so why would he be wasting time reacting to him?

So how about this house rule: In such a collision, the proverbial Wedge gets the option to keep his action, but rolls 2 red dice for possible impact on the other ship, and 1 on the ship that was hit? Wedge gets higher damage because he deliberately did it. Still can't shoot at each other. And due to the actual collision, I would propose that it bypasses shields on both craft.
 
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Henning
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Of course I can adapt my strategy according to the rules, no problem at all. The reason for the proposed change (in casual games anyway - I wouldn't dream on enforcing this in a tournament) is not that I cannot adapt to the current situation but rather for reasons both thematic and game-play wise.

For thematic reason it makes no sense that a rookie pilot should have an advantage in a combat situation that is crammed with ships - this should absolutely be the kind of situation where a pilot ace would shine.

For game-play reason it does not make any sense either. Let's say you only have access to 7 TIE fighters. Should it be more advantageous to bring 7 Academy pilots than 7 Black Squadron pilots? I think it is counter intuitive (as kingbobb stated above). You pay less points but get a greater advantage (in the hands of a skilled player).

asgelb wrote:

Or what about this:

If you end on another ships base, move back like normal as per the rules, and then thats it. both ships can still act as normal, just not shoot at each other.


This is actually much better and simpler than my suggestion. However I would add a limitation to barrel-rolls so that you cannot perform them when touching another ship. Otherwise TIE fighters and pilots with expert handling can maneuver to positions where they can fire at the ship they were previously touching. We do not want to make barrel-rolls more potent I think.
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Hinnyboy wrote:
Of course I can adapt my strategy according to the rules, no problem at all. The reason for the proposed change (in casual games anyway - I wouldn't dream on enforcing this in a tournament) is not that I cannot adapt to the current situation but rather for reasons both thematic and game-play wise.

For thematic reason it makes no sense that a rookie pilot should have an advantage in a combat situation that is crammed with ships - this should absolutely be the kind of situation where a pilot ace would shine.

For game-play reason it does not make any sense either. Let's say you only have access to 7 TIE fighters. Should it be more advantageous to bring 7 Academy pilots than 7 Black Squadron pilots? I think it is counter intuitive (as kingbobb stated above). You pay less points but get a greater advantage (in the hands of a skilled player).

asgelb wrote:

Or what about this:

If you end on another ships base, move back like normal as per the rules, and then thats it. both ships can still act as normal, just not shoot at each other.


This is actually much better and simpler than my suggestion. However I would add a limitation to barrel-rolls so that you cannot perform them when touching another ship. Otherwise TIE fighters and pilots with expert handling can maneuver to positions where they can fire at the ship they were previously touching. We do not want to make barrel-rolls more potent I think.

For casual games, sure, but if you decide to play against someone from outside of your group you may have to go back to normal and you won't be used to that.

Also, using your example, I am of the mind that the seven Black Squadron ships definitely have the advantage there. Sure, you may lose some actions more often than the other side and that is a disadvantage, but I think it is a small one compared to the other advantages they get in the activation phase. They will know exactly what actions are the best to take. The barrel roll action will be so more very useful on the Black Squadron pilots. Also I feel that Koiogan turns are more useful on high skill ships in certain situations as lower skill enemy ships usually have already moved past where you would land. Whereas they would not have been able to turn in that same game round as your ships would have been in the way.

Also a ship that has collided with another can still shoot at another ship, and all of the Black Squadron TIEs will be shooting first. Being able to deny a few shots by destroying the enemy before they can attack is so worth it.

I understand that many of you feel that the lower skill pilots should have no advantage, but I disagree. All it does is open up tactical possibilities. Also, colliding can sometimes be beneficial. For starters, you can't get shot at by the ship you hit. Sure, if you came up just short you get your action, but that is one more ship shooting at you at range band 1. One ship that would probably strip a defensive focus from you anyway. Plus in the situations that you guys are talking about your ship would still likely be able to shoot at targets beyond the ship you hit anyway.

If you run into the rear of an enemy ship, it has stopped you from landing in-front of it facing the wrong way, and you are in tailing position to set up a good shot the next turn.

So it's not all bad.
 
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