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Subject: off hand bonus /re-equiping questions rss

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Ed Collins
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if you have say, two one handed swords, and you make two attacks in one turn, using each sword once, can you use the off hand bonus during the second attack even tho the first sword is axhausted?

also Im confused about re-equiping, it says you can do this during your turn for a cost of 2 movement points, this does not mean you can refresh them does it, ie: do a battle action, use a two handed weapon, then spend two fatigue tokens to gain two movement, then using the two movement to re-equp the 2 handed sword and attack with it again?

or would it take 4 movement points IE: spend two movement to put the exhausted weapon in your pack, then spend two more movement to take it back out , if this is done is it no longer exhausted?

please help, I am very curious about these questions.

thanks,

~ Ed
 
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Matthijs v S
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Weapons do not exhaust when you use them. Only shields do so.

Edit: Shields stay exhausted until the beginning of your next turn. Although I don't think it's possible to unequip an exhausted shield due to timing stuff.
 
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Ed Collins
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wow, that is interesting, we have been playing it wrong then, i assumed any item you used was exhausted when you used it, it seems like the rules wernt clear on that. but now that i look at the item cards more closely, only the sheilds say "exhaust to use) the weapons do not, thank you for this information.

~ Ed
 
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Corvo
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The rules also state that re-equipping is done only at the beginning of the Hero's turn.
 
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Espen G├Ątzschmann
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No it's not. Re-equipping can be done at three different times:

1) At the beginning of the round, you get a free re-equip.
2) When you find items in a chest, all heroes get an immediate free re-equip.
3) You may spend 2 movement points at any time during your turn to re-equip.
 
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Jack Wraith
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TiLT wrote:

3) You may spend 2 movement points at any time during your turn to re-equip.


That's not accurate. Looking at the rulebook where it describes the Hero players' turn it says:

1. Refresh items
2. Re-equip
3. Take an action

Consequently, you can only re-equip at the beginning of your turn, not 'at any time'. That keeps Heroes from shooting one target with their bow and then re-equipping to pull out sword and shield and hit the guy next to them.
 
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Rick Ernst
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Jack, you can re-equip for free at the begining of the hero's turn, but the hero can also re-equip in the middle of his turn for 2 movement points.

 
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Corvo
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This is what I love about discussing in the BGG forums... very informative!

So, reading all your comments I went back to my rulebook and started reading some parts again... and yes, I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

Re-Equipping is a standard every turn thing which doesn't mention using movement points, thus: At the beginning of every turn, get cards, get free re-equip.

After opening a chest, one can automatically re-equip... (that I knew, though...)

...last but not least: The movement actions table mentions that re-quipping can be done at any time for 2 movement points.



My mistake was that I assumed that the possible begin-of-turn-re-equip was also being mentioned in the movement action table. Thus thinking that the re-equipping always costed 2 movement and only at the beginning.

Ah well, at least I know now. The way we played it, seems a tad bit restrictive now
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Corvo wrote:
This is what I love about discussing in the BGG forums... very informative!

So, reading all your comments I went back to my rulebook and started reading some parts again... and yes, I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

Re-Equipping is a standard every turn thing which doesn't mention using movement points, thus: At the beginning of every turn, get cards, get free re-equip.

After opening a chest, one can automatically re-equip... (that I knew, though...)

...last but not least: The movement actions table mentions that re-quipping can be done at any time for 2 movement points.



My mistake was that I assumed that the possible begin-of-turn-re-equip was also being mentioned in the movement action table. Thus thinking that the re-equipping always costed 2 movement and only at the beginning.

Ah well, at least I know now. The way we played it, seems a tad bit restrictive now


Just read through the rules on this, and while it's not clear, I don't think the "re-equip for 2 MPs during the action phase is correct. Nor do I think that at any time do the heroes get a "free" re-equip.

There are clearly 3 phases to the hero turn:

1) Refresh
2) Re-equip
3) Take an action.

There's nothing in the rules or the FAQ that states that re-equipping is ever free. There's no free (meaning costs 0 MP) re-equip during the Re-Equip phases, and no 0 MP re-equip when a treasure is gained. There is an additional opportunity to equip an item gained from a chest, but this costs 2 MPs. If a hero doesn't have or does not want to spend the MPs to equip the new item, it must either be placed in their pack, dropped, or if it's from a chest, discard it for it's money value. Heroes also may opt to equip items given to them by other heroes, but this again is not free, and costs 2 MP to do so.

The rules don't say whether this 2 MP equip cost is for a single item, or a general re-equipping of all his gear. It costs 1 MP to give a single item to another hero, so I would lean toward 2 MP per item equipped. I'd say it doesn't cost anything to drop an item, or place it in your pack. So changing your sword and shield for your bow costs 2 MP, because you're only equipping one item. But doing the reverse would cost 4 MPs, as you're equipping both your sword and shield, 2 items. But I could also see accepting a 2 MP cost to equip any amount of gear. arrrh
 
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T France
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kingbobb wrote:
Corvo wrote:
This is what I love about discussing in the BGG forums... very informative!

So, reading all your comments I went back to my rulebook and started reading some parts again... and yes, I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

Re-Equipping is a standard every turn thing which doesn't mention using movement points, thus: At the beginning of every turn, get cards, get free re-equip.

After opening a chest, one can automatically re-equip... (that I knew, though...)

...last but not least: The movement actions table mentions that re-quipping can be done at any time for 2 movement points.



My mistake was that I assumed that the possible begin-of-turn-re-equip was also being mentioned in the movement action table. Thus thinking that the re-equipping always costed 2 movement and only at the beginning.

Ah well, at least I know now. The way we played it, seems a tad bit restrictive now


Just read through the rules on this, and while it's not clear, I don't think the "re-equip for 2 MPs during the action phase is correct. Nor do I think that at any time do the heroes get a "free" re-equip.

There are clearly 3 phases to the hero turn:

1) Refresh
2) Re-equip
3) Take an action.

There's nothing in the rules or the FAQ that states that re-equipping is ever free. There's no free (meaning costs 0 MP) re-equip during the Re-Equip phases, and no 0 MP re-equip when a treasure is gained. There is an additional opportunity to equip an item gained from a chest, but this costs 2 MPs. If a hero doesn't have or does not want to spend the MPs to equip the new item, it must either be placed in their pack, dropped, or if it's from a chest, discard it for it's money value. Heroes also may opt to equip items given to them by other heroes, but this again is not free, and costs 2 MP to do so.

The rules don't say whether this 2 MP equip cost is for a single item, or a general re-equipping of all his gear. It costs 1 MP to give a single item to another hero, so I would lean toward 2 MP per item equipped. I'd say it doesn't cost anything to drop an item, or place it in your pack. So changing your sword and shield for your bow costs 2 MP, because you're only equipping one item. But doing the reverse would cost 4 MPs, as you're equipping both your sword and shield, 2 items. But I could also see accepting a 2 MP cost to equip any amount of gear. arrrh


The flaw in this theory is that a hero has no movement points until he chooses which action he is taking for his turn, which occurs AFTER the Equip items phase.

Also, the two movement points state "re-equip", while the phase is simply the Equip phase.
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Titeman wrote:
The flaw in this theory is that a hero has no movement points until he chooses which action he is taking for his turn, which occurs AFTER the Equip items phase.

Also, the two moevement points state "re-equip", while the phase is simply the Equip phase.


I'd say that's not technically accurate. The hero has movement points, just how many is not determined until they choose an action.

However, the rules are vague enough that I don't think viewing the Equip phase as a free equip action are unsupported. I just tend to think in terms of looking to see how the rules work, rather than looking to see how they don't work.

Allowing a free equip action every turn defeats the purpose of putting in a cost to equip. The only actions that don't require and MPs are picking up a token, and dropping an item. Everything else requires at least 1 MP. Allowing the heroes to freely rummage in their backpacks every turn to swap out their armor, weapons, and make potions ready seems overpowered and unbalanced in favor of the heroes.

Additionally, even if the equip phase option doesn't require the expenditure of MPs, there's nothing that suggests that the in-action gaining of equipment, from other players or chests, is a free equip option. On the contrary, if we look at when MPs are generated as a guide, it would suggest that such actions do in fact cost MPs.

Plus, there's an avenue of abuse that goes along with that thinking: Heroes take their turns sequentially. Hero #1 takes his entire turn, Refresh, Equip, Action, and completes it before Hero #2 begins his turn. You could have Hero #1 attack with his magic weapon, hand it to Hero #2, who then uses the free equip to ready that same weapon, and then attack with it again. For the cost of 1MP from Hero #1, they have effectively cloned the weapon.

That seems not in line with the rules, to me. arrrh

 
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T France
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The movement cost specifically states "re-equip"; I do not think this is an accident. One cannot re-equip if one has not equipped in the first place. Also, a hero has no movement points until he chooses an action, because if he/she chooses the Battle action, there are no movement points given (unless fatigue is spent).
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Titeman wrote:
The movement cost specifically states "re-equip"; I do not think this is an accident. One cannot re-equip if one has not equipped in the first place. Also, a hero has no movement points until he chooses an action, because if he/she chooses the Battle action, there are no movement points given (unless fatigue is spent).


Exactly. While the timing issue may seem wonky, what this means is that you may only take a battle action with a weapon you already have equipped. Or, as you point out, by spending fatigue. So the rules certainly allow for a hero that wants to switch from ranged to melee, but also wants to declare a Battle action, by needing to expend fatigue. If they don't have the fatigue to expend, then they are too tired to both change equipment AND engage in battle.

Why have a MP cost only for some equipping actions? There's no parallel in any other action that requires the expenditure of MPs. You don't get to consume one free potion per turn. You don't get one free item transfer per turn. I also don't think "re-equip" was an accident. Heroes, at the start of the game, must decide what items to equip. That takes no MPs, as the game hasn't even started yet. But once they enter, changing that equipment would be a re-eqipping action, whether it occurs in the equip phase or not.

If we look at the literal word choice as a guide, it would mean that, during the equip phase, every turn, they heroes would be donning their equipment anew each turn. That makes no sense. arrrh

edit: I just took another look at the rules. The only instance where a hero is allowed to equip something for free is in the case of healing and vitality potion markers. This specific free equip option is limited only to these potion markers, and only if the hero does not already have 3 potions equipped. The absence of a free equip option at any other time to me says that any other equip action requires the expenditure of MPs. If this occurs during the equip phase, just note that you cannot perform a battle action that turn unless you also expend fatigue to gain MPs. The rules on this state
Quote:
At any time during a hero's turn, he may spend one fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently taking the battle action.
Quote:


If you're still having problems with the whole "but there's no MPs generated until the Action phase," I'd suggest viewing it this way: Heroes each turn may expend up to 2 times their speed. Making an attack costs their starting speed characteristic in MPs, as does taking an order during a turn (and only 1 order may be taken by a hero per turn, and they do not carry over). arrrh
 
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T France
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We'll have to agree to disagree, but that's what the forums are for...
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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No, no, I want to win!

It would be interesting to play the scenarios back-back using both rules applications, and seeing if it makes any difference. My guess would be that my take would make it a little more challenging for the heroes, while the free equip option would make it a little easier. But I don't think it would be a big issue.

arrrh
 
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Ed Collins
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I'm curious to see what any of the game designers have to say about this question, can we get a straight answer on this topic?

~ Ed
 
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Ed Collins
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upon reading the rules closer, i think i found somthing that might put this debate to a rest, on page 16 in the center column at the bottom under "Movement Actions" it says: "In addition to moving, figures can use some or all of their movement points to perform other tasks, tho following table....
...Table
MOVEMENT
UsedTask
2 Re-Equip

now does this mean you can re-equip as many items you want to as in Step 2:Equip Items, or is it 2 movement points for each item you re-equip?

~ Ed
 
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shred121569 wrote:
upon reading the rules closer, i think i found somthing that might put this debate to a rest, on page 16 in the center column at the bottom under "Movement Actions" it says: "In addition to moving, figures can use some or all of their movement points to perform other tasks, tho following table....
...Table
MOVEMENT
UsedTask
2 Re-Equip

now does this mean you can re-equip as many items you want to as in Step 2:Equip Items, or is it 2 movement points for each item you re-equip?

~ Ed


Um, that was kind of the crux of the discussion...
 
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Ed Collins
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well, i guess what im trying ot say is, I believe that you can spend to MP's at any time during your turn to re-equip, Im thinking that means you can re-equip as many items as you need for the cost of 2 mp
 
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shred121569 wrote:
I'm curious to see what any of the game designers have to say about this question, can we get a straight answer on this topic?

~ Ed


I second that...
...
I hope Kevin or Mike could shed some light on this matter.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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TiLT wrote:
No it's not. Re-equipping can be done at three different times:

1) At the beginning of the round, you get a free re-equip.
2) When you find items in a chest, all heroes get an immediate free re-equip.
3) You may spend 2 movement points at any time during your turn to re-equip.


The above quote is almost correct.

1) Completely correct.

2) You may only equip items received from the chest (any replaced items go in the backpack or are dropped). You can not use this free equip to pull items out of your pack (such as a potion) and equip them.

3) Completely correct.

Heroes may also equip any item for free when they are given them by another Hero or picked up off the ground.

Mike Z
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Mike, I trust your take, as you've played with the designers, but you may want to pass along that what you say, and what the rules say, are two different things. I'm a lawyer, so my job deals with reading laws (rules) that other people wrote and trying to figure out 1) what the words mean, and 2) does that differ from what the law/rule was supposed to mean. I don't pass that along to say I'm an expert on interpreting rules, but rather to say that this isn't just my gamer instinct, but my professional opinion as someone that deals with rules every day.

The rules only include 2 examples of "free," meaning 0 MP cost, equip options, and that's for health and vitality markers. By neglecting to state that the equip option during the equip phase is meant to be free, as is the equip option received from a chest and when given equipment from other characters, the rules as written imply that these equip actions cost MPs.

I think it would be a good idea if FFG, in the next FAQ update, addresses this, as I think this discussion has shown that this is a vague enough area that it needs to be clarified.
 
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That's interesting, because I'm NOT a lawyer, and I understood the rules perfectly...
1 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Titeman wrote:
That's interesting, because I'm NOT a lawyer, and I understood the rules perfectly...


Which is probably why you did...you're just looking to get playing, and not agonizing over "but what does THIS mean..." every few pages.

Maybe it's only the legally-trained, gamer-geek population (so far composed of me) that needs to worry about things like this. Could we get a Bobb-safe version of the rules?arrrh
 
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Douglas Buel
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kingbobb wrote:
Mike, I trust your take, as you've played with the designers, but you may want to pass along that what you say, and what the rules say, are two different things.


Naah, they don't.

The Equip phase comes before you get movement points. You don't even have any movement points yet, because you haven't chosen whether you'll battle, run or what-have-you. You're suggesting that you have to pay movement points in this phase, before you even have them? Not likely.

Furthermore, the chart that specifies the cost for movement actions states that it costs 2 movement points to RE-equip. The phase is the EQUIP phase, but then the movement action is RE-equip.

Anyway, if you follow the instructions for carrying out a hero turn, you must decide which items are equipped during the Equip phase. You don't even have movement points to spend yet.
 
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