Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Virgin Queen» Forums » Rules

Subject: Should treasures be discarded when a major power is deactivated? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The procedure for deactivating an activated major power does not mention treasures. But since the hand of cards for the activated major power is reset by discarding and redealing, it seems to me the treasures should be reset as well by discarding them as part of the Deactivation procedure.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Jelley
United Kingdom
Hungerford
Berkshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If it says to discard its 'hand' then its cards and treasures.

Philip
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This is what it says:

Quote:
All cards currently in the deactivating power’s hand are immediately discarded (even if this major power is going to be immediately activated as an ally of a different major power).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MLeis
Estonia
Tallinn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Conceptually, one could make a case for not discarding treasures. Treasures are an essential part of activatable major power's wealth (much like, say, number of their units on board) and therefore need to carry over from one activation to the next. As opposed to cards which is simply a complicated RNG to give players something to think about and therefore are to be shuffled often.

I'm not sure if this is the designer's intention, though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven
United States
Spokane
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
"The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fielmann wrote:
Conceptually, one could make a case for not discarding treasures. Treasures are an essential part of activatable major power's wealth (much like, say, number of their units on board) and therefore need to carry over from one activation to the next. As opposed to cards which is simply a complicated RNG to give players something to think about and therefore are to be shuffled often.

I'm not sure if this is the designer's intention, though.


I agree with Philip, although rules only state cards treasures should probably should be discarded as well at this time. I believe treasures were omitted mistakenly, because there is no way a non-player major power can get treasures without diplomacy. They have no Sea Captains, colonies, or home cards (Ottoman Tribute). Plus unused treasures are discarded at the during the winter phase. Why should this be different for an inactive major power?

Ed’s intentions seem pretty clear to me. When a power deactivates it discards all of its cards, removes any +1 or -1 card markers, removes allied markers etc. Also, when a power re-activates it gets a completely new hand of cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MLeis
Estonia
Tallinn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
SW_Cygnus wrote:
treasures should probably should be discarded as well at this time. I believe treasures were omitted mistakenly
Yes, I'm actually quite sure that this is the case, I was just theorising

On a side note, I imagine that besides diplomacy, activated major powers could also get their hands on some treasures by:
- controlling Lisbon,
- initiating piracy on the Europe map if the target does not have more cards than treasures,
- gaining a card draw through events (Border Reivers, Spanish Fury, Witchcraft) if the target does not have more cards than treasures.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fielmann wrote:
SW_Cygnus wrote:
treasures should probably should be discarded as well at this time. I believe treasures were omitted mistakenly
Yes, I'm actually quite sure that this is the case, I was just theorising

On a side note, I imagine that besides diplomacy, activated major powers could also get their hands on some treasures by:
- controlling Lisbon,
- initiating piracy on the Europe map if the target does not have more cards than treasures,
- gaining a card draw through events (Border Reivers, Spanish Fury, Witchcraft) if the target does not have more cards than treasures.


All this time playing and I thought it was the player allied to Portugal who got the treasures. But you're right, it's who controls Lisbon (pages 10 and 33 of the Rule Book).

I notice that the non-diplomacy means of getting treasures are all rather unlikely. In particular, gaining control of Lisbon would be very difficult for either HRE or the Ottoman since neither of them can gain control of Portugal via diplomatic influence. This very strongly suggests to me that an activated major power with one or more treasures was never deactivated during playtesting, so it did not occur to the game designer to account for it in the rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Mad Hatter
United States
Burbank
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder if it's a moot point - if a power is deactivated (let's say it's the HRE in a less-than-full six player game), then the diplomatic status of that power couldn't be resolved again that turn; the markers are moved to "resolved" and will then be reset on the next turn. Past the end of the turn in which they were deactivated, it wouldn't matter anyway if there was a treasure sitting on the HRE's power card - as unused treasures would be discarded as part of the Winter Phase.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
madhatter106 wrote:
I wonder if it's a moot point - if a power is deactivated (let's say it's the HRE in a less-than-full six player game), then the diplomatic status of that power couldn't be resolved again that turn; the markers are moved to "resolved" and will then be reset on the next turn. Past the end of the turn in which they were deactivated, it wouldn't matter anyway if there was a treasure sitting on the HRE's power card - as unused treasures would be discarded as part of the Winter Phase.


No, it's not moot, since the first step of activating a major power with a new ally is to deactivate that major power from its former ally. See step 4 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Mad Hatter
United States
Burbank
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mmaginity2 wrote:
madhatter106 wrote:
I wonder if it's a moot point - if a power is deactivated (let's say it's the HRE in a less-than-full six player game), then the diplomatic status of that power couldn't be resolved again that turn; the markers are moved to "resolved" and will then be reset on the next turn. Past the end of the turn in which they were deactivated, it wouldn't matter anyway if there was a treasure sitting on the HRE's power card - as unused treasures would be discarded as part of the Winter Phase.


No, it's not moot, since the first step of activating a major power with a new ally is to deactivate that major power from its former ally. See step 4 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book.


I was only speaking in terms of deactivating, and not in shifting from possession of one major power to another. See step 5 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
madhatter106 wrote:
mmaginity2 wrote:
madhatter106 wrote:
I wonder if it's a moot point - if a power is deactivated (let's say it's the HRE in a less-than-full six player game), then the diplomatic status of that power couldn't be resolved again that turn; the markers are moved to "resolved" and will then be reset on the next turn. Past the end of the turn in which they were deactivated, it wouldn't matter anyway if there was a treasure sitting on the HRE's power card - as unused treasures would be discarded as part of the Winter Phase.


No, it's not moot, since the first step of activating a major power with a new ally is to deactivate that major power from its former ally. See step 4 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book.


I was only speaking in terms of deactivating, and not in shifting from possession of one major power to another. See step 5 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book.


Mad Hatter, you're not the first person I've encountered who's missed the part about deactivating being the first step of changing powers. But it's spelled out very clearly in step 4 of the Diplomatic Status Procedure on page 41 of the Rule Book (emphasis added):

Quote:
4. Activate: If the winner is listed as an Activate power and does not currently have this power as an ally, then deactivate the power from its current ally (if any) and then activate it as an ally or the winning power. If the Activated power is the Ottoman or Holy Roman (in a 4 or 5-player game), refer to the Scenario Book for instructions on Activated Major Powers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Perhaps one of the reasons why people can get confused on this point (at least when control of minor powers changes) is the following from page 40 of the Rule Book:

Quote:
Minor powers are only deactivated in one way:
• An event has caused the diplomatic status of the minor power to be evaluated and the power listed as the “Deactivate” power at the bottom of the Diplomatic Influence Table won that evaluation.


This is just plain wrong, since as I previously indicated, a minor power is also deactivated when control of it shifts from one major power to the "Activate" major power that won the diplomatic status resolution. These deactivation steps can't be skipped because otherwise the "Allied" marker from the previously controlling power would still be on the Diplomatic Status Display and the minor power units would not be returned home, possibly leading to illegal situations where minor power units are left on spaces that they are no longer allied with or at war with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven
United States
Spokane
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
"The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mmaginity2 wrote:
Perhaps one of the reasons why people can get confused on this point (at least when control of minor powers changes) is the following from page 40 of the Rule Book:

Quote:
Minor powers are only deactivated in one way:
• An event has caused the diplomatic status of the minor power to be evaluated and the power listed as the “Deactivate” power at the bottom of the Diplomatic Influence Table won that evaluation.


This is just plain wrong, since as I previously indicated, a minor power is also deactivated when control of it shifts from one major power to the "Activate" major power that won the diplomatic status resolution. These deactivation steps can't be skipped because otherwise the "Allied" marker from the previously controlling power would still be on the Diplomatic Status Display and the minor power units would not be returned home, possibly leading to illegal situations where minor power units are left on spaces that they are no longer allied with or at war with.


I don't think it is plain wrong, maybe just a bit confusing. In fact, I had to be corrected by Ed a few months ago.

Here's a link to a post by Ed confirming that you always use the deactivation procedure and then the activation procedure when a minor power (and by extension a non-player major power) changes sides diplomatically.

Here's an important quote to keep in mind from Ed (a few posts later):

Ed Beach wrote:
SW_Cygnus wrote:

I suppose there is a difference between a "state of deactivation" and the "procedure for deactivation". It does make sense, because the minor power units are forced back to their minor power spaces, before control is switched.


Yes, exactly true. I don't think this is the only time in the game a procedure gets stepped through because of something else triggering it from elsewhere in the rules or cards.


So you follow 24.4 (Deactivation) and then 24.2 (Activation), unless the that player can only deactivate the minor/non-player major power. Also, keep in mind there are some modifications found in the scenario book to these procedures too.

I guess this brings us back to square one: Should a treasure be discarded? Given that the entire hand is being discarded and possibly redrawn, I think so. No offical word yet though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ed Beach
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Yes, treasures should certainly be discarded when a power is deactivated. This is a total "reset" of that power, so all cards, treasures, etc. are taken away at that time.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for clearing that up, Ed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ed Beach wrote:
Yes, treasures should certainly be discarded when a power is deactivated. This is a total "reset" of that power, so all cards, treasures, etc. are taken away at that time.


Just when I thought this was over ...

What about weddings? Since weddings can be arranged even when the HRE is inactive, I'm guessing any weddings are still on. Is that right?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ed Beach
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Yes!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Maginity
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Ed!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.