Bill Hartman
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I have just started with the game, and the fact that the same villain can be in 2 areas of the city at once doesn't bother me too much honestly, but I thought of a possible solution for those that ARE bugged by this.

When a duplicate is drawn, place it ON TOP OF THE EXISTING COPY. This way, similar to the mastermind, you would have to beat the villain X number of times, where X is the number of copies of him/her in a specific location. Remove a copy each time he is defeated, but if any are left MOVE the villain as well (to the next adjacent city location to the left of the original spot).

I haven't used this variant yet myself, since multiples don't bother me. For Sentinels and others, it really doesn't matter if there are duplicates (same with skrulls). I would only use it if I played with someone bothered by multiple Blobs, venoms, etc.

As for Ambush, It triggers every instance. And since the stacking is just essentially a power boost, all copies would "escape" at once, together.

I'm planning on trying the variant with my game group once they have enough standard plays, and possibly raise the difficulty (as per the rulebook) to adjust for the slightly reduced escape chance (somewhat mitigated by still moving the character when you stack a duplicate, each time)

I would also only use it for the villains that don't make sense to have duplicates, ie Doc Octopus, Venom, Blob, etc.

Also:
jbabel wrote:
if stacked villains escape you KO 1 hero from HQ for each copy.


I like that!

Thoughts?
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Carl White
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Interesting idea. The villain is effectively buffed. I like that not being in two places at once makes more thematic sense.

And for those who have been concerned about how the game seems to easy, how about this variant of the variant: if you draw a villain who is already out, you place that card on top of the existing villain card, and then draw another villain card.

Note I've not played yet (waiting for my copy to arrive), so this suggestion is in no way considered or based upon experience.
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R N
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Thematically it works, but mechanically it makes it easier to keep villains from escaping by effectively giving you an extra city location. I assume you are not using this rule for henchmen...

If you draw a villain with an Ambush do you still use the Ambush effect? What happens if a stacked villain escapes?
 
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Jarrod Babel
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If you wanted to use this variant I would say:
henchmen are not effected by this.
Ambush effect occurs
if stacked villains escape you KO 1 hero from HQ for each copy.
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Bill Hartman
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slacks wrote:
Thematically it works, but mechanically it makes it easier to keep villains from escaping by effectively giving you an extra city location. I assume you are not using this rule for henchmen...

If you draw a villain with an Ambush do you still use the Ambush effect? What happens if a stacked villain escapes?



I haven't used this variant yet myself, since multiples don't bother me. For Sentinels and others, it really doesn't matter if there are duplicates (same with skrulls). I would only use it if I played with someone bothered by multiple Blobs, venoms, etc.

As for Ambush, yes I would keep the effect. And since it's just essentially a power boost, all copies would "escape".

I'm planning on trying the variant with my game group once they have enough standard plays, and possibly raise the difficulty (as per the rulebook) to adjust for the slightly reduced escape chance (somewhat mitigated by still moving the character when you stack a duplicate, each time)

I would also only use it for the villains that don't make sense to have duplicates, ie Doc Octopus, Venom, Blob, etc.

jbabel wrote:
if stacked villains escape you KO 1 hero from HQ for each copy.


I like that!
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David Miller
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Basically I likened multiples of the same villain out as having them at 2 different places. But what I was thinking that maybe add +1 attack for each copy. (Only villain groups). But also when one is defeated maybe ko the other copy.
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Nathan Collins
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jbabel wrote:
If you wanted to use this variant I would say:
henchmen are not effected by this.
Ambush effect occurs

if stacked villains escape you KO 1 hero from HQ for each copy.

I like it, if difficulty lowering is still a concern, insert rule
If the villain is not on the bridge, move that villain one step up. And all other villains. Other non, copied villains may escape this way. (the thought pattern being that because the multiple copied villain diverted resources away from catching the low level villain. )
 
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Devin Low
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Hi all,

Thanks for the interesting topic. During the playtesting process, I experimented with a potential rule where if a second copy of a unique Villain came up, it would overlay the existing version of that Villain in the city. The overlaid Villain had +3 Power, and if anyone defeated the Villain, they would claim both copies.

However, Playtesting revealed that the potential rule added more problems than it solved. In particular:

1) Different players' intuitions for which villains should count as "unique" often conflicted. Marvel experts see Sentinels as non-unique and Melter as unique, but players with less Marvel knowledge didn't find that clear at all. Even Marvel experts had different intuitions about whether a Villain like Super-Skrull should be considered unique, and with good reason. In a way, there is only one classic Super-Skrull, the venerable Kl'rt, but there have also been whole armies of Super-Skrulls. I experimented with putting a uniqueness indicator on the cards to differentiate it, but playtesters kept missing the indicator and overlaying according to intuition, and/or forgetting, leading to messiness.

2) Several of the Ambush effects and Escape effects on overlaid Villains proved confusing in playtesting, whether repeated twice or not repeated twice.

3) As the original poster notes, "the fact that the same villain can be in 2 areas of the city at once doesn't bother me too much honestly". In Marvel comics and movies, Villains often need to be defeated multiple times before they are brought to justice. Personally, I look at it as "Reports are coming in of Venom lurking in the Sewers and under the Bridge...Which reports are true? Go there and find out!" Most playtesters felt similarly to the original poster, that having Venom occasionally lurking in two locations just wasn't that bad of a flavor hit to be worth the confusions of stacking them up or other potential changes.

Note that the Villains that have 3 or 10 copies in the set are all non-unique Villains, and that some unique Villains have only one copy in the set, increasing the likelihood that when you see two copies of the same Villain in the city, it will usually (though not always) be a non-unique Villain.

Overall, I find it was worth exploring overlaying duplicate Villains, but I don't recommend overlaying them, and that's why that's not part of the final game.

Overlayingly yours,

Devin Low meeple
Designer, Legendary
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Bill Hartman
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Thanks for the response! It's obvious that you put a lot of time and effort into the design and balance of the game. My family and I are having an absolute blast with it, and that is tough to find with my wife, especially!

At least for those few who can't seem to accept or find a narrative to go along with it, there are some ideas for them if they already own the game. I have seen some that also don't "get" the team recruiting aspect. I just play as if I'm part of a council trying to assemble the best team for the job, and trying to get them to work/coordinate together (which as we know in the stories, comics and otherwise, isn't always so easy), which also for me totally fits the "semi-coop" nature.

Good job on an awesome game that I can play with my game group AND my family and have a complete blast with every time!
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Nathan Collins
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devinlow wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for the interesting topic. During the playtesting process, I experimented with a potential rule where if a second copy of a unique Villain came up, it would overlay the existing version of that Villain in the city. The overlaid Villain had +3 Power, and if anyone defeated the Villain, they would claim both copies.

However, Playtesting revealed that the potential rule added more problems than it solved. In particular:

1) Different players' intuitions for which villains should count as "unique" often conflicted. Marvel experts see Sentinels as non-unique and Melter as unique, but players with less Marvel knowledge didn't find that clear at all. Even Marvel experts had different intuitions about whether a Villain like Super-Skrull should be considered unique, and with good reason. In a way, there is only one classic Super-Skrull, the venerable Kl'rt, but there have also been whole armies of Super-Skrulls. I experimented with putting a uniqueness indicator on the cards to differentiate it, but playtesters kept missing the indicator and overlaying according to intuition, and/or forgetting, leading to messiness.

2) Several of the Ambush effects and Escape effects on overlaid Villains proved confusing in playtesting, whether repeated twice or not repeated twice.

3) As the original poster notes, "the fact that the same villain can be in 2 areas of the city at once doesn't bother me too much honestly". In Marvel comics and movies, Villains often need to be defeated multiple times before they are brought to justice. Personally, I look at it as "Reports are coming in of Venom lurking in the Sewers and under the Bridge...Which reports are true? Go there and find out!" Most playtesters felt similarly to the original poster, that having Venom occasionally lurking in two locations just wasn't that bad of a flavor hit to be worth the confusions of stacking them up or other potential changes.

Note that the Villains that have 3 or 10 copies in the set are all non-unique Villains, and that some unique Villains have only one copy in the set, increasing the likelihood that when you see two copies of the same Villain in the city, it will usually (though not always) be a non-unique Villain.

Overall, I find it was worth exploring overlaying duplicate Villains, but I don't recommend overlaying them, and that's why that's not part of the final game.

Overlayingly yours,

Devin Low meeple
Designer, Legendary

My idea was
a. There is no stacking. Instead add a counter on both the copy and the original. This represents "master plan" rule in which the villain has unhatched some crazy diabolical scheme that involves both parts of the city.
b. If 1 villain with a token escapes set the token to the side. One part of the plan has already come into fruition. If a second villain escapes then the plan has reached full fruition. Add 1 scheme twist to the villain deck and shuffle in addition to killing two heroes.

c. If only one villain escapes but the other defeated, that means the plan half worked. Upon player receipt of the second villain discard the first villain as normal with the normal penalties.

d. Players receive a +1 for each additional copy of a villain in their discard pile.

1. I think the villain only category helps separate the unique villains from the multiple villains. I am more adamant on the issue than the OP (though not by much). My problem isn't the villain in multiple areas, its that there should be some type of added bonus or mayhem if a villain is hatching a plan that spans him in multiple parts of the city. It adds a bit more depth to why two villians are out and about in differnet parts of the city and puts some flavor behind it. It also does thiswithout changing hte nature of the game. (witch the exception of adding some tokens (dice, beads etc).

2 Because the game stays the same, it doesn't effect any rules in game. The game still flows the same.

3 Again, great game, its not an huge issue but it is a minor story snag in a good game. I think the op and myself and others are interested in fixing this wrinkle. I am interested in doing it without adding too much extra to the game. I liken multiple villains to rolling a 1 in dnd. We get the Oh crap moment.

The idea to change the scoring came from friends wondering how to make it a tad more competitive without going overboard. We have also been toying around with an "agricola" style scoring where players who have so many of a particular villain get more points, the story reason being that they were able to stop more of that villains master plot.
 
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Bill Hartman
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Actually, I play the game "as-is". I just wanted to offer some ideas, and hear other's ideas, for those who were bothered by multiple copies of certain villains popping up. For me, it really doesn't matter. We (My family and game group) get so engrossed in the gameplay, we aren't picking apart those kinds of details as long as the gameplay flows smoothly, which I think is the case here.

Thanks for your suggestion too!
 
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Brendan Born
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The answer is so clear - the game really doesn't require a fix on this because there are tons of reasons why a marvel villain would be in 2 places at once. With the right group it could inspire comics conversation. A few things come to mind: shapeshifting skrull, Chameleon, Mistique; clones, alternate universe, alternate character ( for example Venom has been Eddie Brock, Mac Gargon and others ) ...

That being said: Toad and Pyro should really be in the Brotherhood!
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B Fresh
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FunkyFlyChicken wrote:
I just wanted to offer some ideas, and hear other's ideas, for those who were bothered by multiple copies of certain villains popping up.

When I construct the Villain Deck, I divide the cards into two piles. I split up duplicate villains and try to put the same number of scheme twists and bystanders in each pile. I shuffle each pile separately and then place them on top of each other to make the Villain Deck. This reduces the chance that you'll see the same villain in two different city spaces.
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Bryon Hake
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Devin,

Thanks for the info!

Fan request: As you are designing new Villain groups, keep the unique characters ... unique.

And keep up the good work. Our playgroup is loving this game. We hope we don't have to wait until San Diego Comic Con to get the expansion. The sooner the better!
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Bill Hartman
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idrinkdrpepper wrote:
FunkyFlyChicken wrote:
I just wanted to offer some ideas, and hear other's ideas, for those who were bothered by multiple copies of certain villains popping up.

When I construct the Villain Deck, I divide the cards into two piles. I split up duplicate villains and try to put the same number of scheme twists and bystanders in each pile. I shuffle each pile separately and then place them on top of each other to make the Villain Deck. This reduces the chance that you'll see the same villain in two different city spaces.


That's a bit of extra work on top of the setup already required, but I applaud the effort and think it's a nice solution. Some of us (about half of our group) doesn't mind the "deckbuilder setup/teardown time, especially if we are randomizing things. The others, can't stand the setup time. I fall in between, I usually don't mind it, but when we are pressed for time, it can sometimes suck on cleanup to sort through all the piles, but it does help that most of my game group will assist me with it.
 
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Dave Maynor
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Well, we can slow down a bit... hehe.......

We don't have 5 Wolverines running around. Each card represents that hero influencing things in that 'panel' or 'issue' as I see it. So having the villain in a city location just means his influence is there. He can still be foiled, but run back to his lair. Maybe they will avoid Masterminds also being on Villain cards in the same game, but even if they don't it really wont impact immersion.
 
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