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Innovation: Echoes of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: Clarification about drawing with Echoes rss

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Josh
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EDIT: Please note that this thread pertains to the setup described in Innovation: Figures in the Sand, and was initially posted to the forum for that expansion, and then was later moved to the forum for Innovation: Echoes of the Past

First of all, my utmost respect goes out to the designer of this game and anyone else associated with it. It's the megahit in our gaming group, where it hits a sweet spot of strategy versus randomness. I love how wacky the game can get in the later ages. We are all very excited for the upcoming expansion. Kudos!

Recently we have been playing with the new setup and draw rules from the upcoming expansion. The bolded sentence in the rules is clear enough, but I'm interested to know what constitutes "in your hand." I very much get the sense that any form of draw follows the new rules, whether a Draw action or any draw due to card effects.

A possible example among many: I play Lighting, and I tuck three cards, each of different values. I have one Base card in my hand. I get to draw and score three 7s.

Do I draw an Echo 7, followed by two Base 7s, and then score them? Or do I draw an Echo 7, score it, then draw another Echo 7, score it, and then do this once more?

If each draw is independent I assume the latter possibility is correct. Are the drawn cards "in my hand," albeit transiently on their way to the score pile?
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Jonathan C
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JoshBot wrote:
First of all, my utmost respect goes out to the designer of this game and anyone else associated with it. It's the megahit in our gaming group, where it hits a sweet spot of strategy versus randomness. I love how wacky the game can get in the later ages. We are all very excited for the upcoming expansion. Kudos!

Recently we have been playing with the new setup and draw rules from the upcoming expansion. The bolded sentence in the rules is clear enough, but I'm interested to know what constitutes "in your hand." I very much get the sense that any form of draw follows the new rules, whether a Draw action or any draw due to card effects.

A possible example among many: I play Lighting, and I tuck three cards, each of different values. I have one Base card in my hand. I get to draw and score three 7s.

Do I draw an Echo 7, followed by two Base 7s, and then score them? Or do I draw an Echo 7, score it, then draw another Echo 7, score it, and then do this once more?

If each draw is independent I assume the latter possibility is correct. Are the drawn cards "in my hand," albeit transiently on their way to the score pile?




I see your confusion. I believe it is intended to be interpreted as 3 separate Draw-then-Score actions, so that would be drawing 7 Echos cards. However, I could see this going either way? Depending on whether the active player decided by choice instead to Draw all 3 consecutively, then score the three consecutively.

If this was Glory to Rome, I would suggest that it would be up to the player to choose. But this is Innovation, so I think the answer is that these are 3 separate Draw-Score actions.
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Chris Cieslik
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In any case where you are to "Draw and [thing] X cards" you do (Draw, then Thing) X times.
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Josh
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OK, so in my example it would be: draw Echo 7, then Base 7 twice, then score all three.

Thus, if I had no cards in my hand after Lighting, I'd draw a Base 7, then Echo 7, then Base 7, then score all three.
 
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Joseph DiMuro
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angelkurisu wrote:
In any case where you are to "Draw and [thing] X cards" you do Draw, then Thing X times.


JoshBot wrote:
OK, so in my example it would be: draw Echo 7, then Base 7 twice, then score all three.

Thus, if I had no cards in my hand after Lighting, I'd draw a Base 7, then Echo 7, then Base 7, then score all three.


Maybe Chris needs to clarify his clarification.

My interpretation was that you draw and score, then draw and score, then draw and score. And it looked to me like Chris's post confirmed my interpretation. But I can see how Chris's post could be interpreted both ways.

Chris, maybe you should've put parentheses around "Draw, then Thing".
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Simon Skov
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TrojH wrote:
My interpretation was that you draw and score, then draw and score, then draw and score. And it looked to me like Chris's post confirmed my interpretation. But I can see how Chris's post could be interpreted both ways.

Chris, maybe you should've put parentheses around "Draw, then Thing".


That's how I interpret it as well. This should mean that whenever you "Draw and X", you will be drawing the same type of card if you do it multiple times. Unless it happens to be "Draw and reveal"
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Mike Smith-Stoe
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I agree that Chris could use some parentheses.

It's got to be Draw and [thing], Draw and [thing], Draw and [thing]. Otherwise you will never draw more than one Echoes card with this type of action.

Not many, but some cards are already weakened by the new draw rules. (I'm looking at you Flute.) The number of weakened cards would grow if you couldn't position yourself to draw only Echoes or Base card for multiple Draw and [thing] actions. It would be unfortunate if you could only get one Echoes card on your board from activating Industrialization - Draw and Tuck a 6 for every two [factory] on your board. Good chance you would see fewer special achievements for bonuses and echo effects.

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Tony Wai-kit FUNG
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Now I am confused about grouping the draws before the other action.

From a previous message from Chris,
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8710394#8710394
with Draw and Meld two cards, you said draw and meld one card, then draw and meld the second card.

With another message from Chris,
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10029146#10029146
with draw and reveal 4 cards, you said draw 4 cards, and then reveal them.

Which grouping is correct?
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William Miao
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tonyfung1205 wrote:
Now I am confused about grouping the draws before the other action.

From a previous message from Chris,
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8710394#8710394
with Draw and Meld two cards, you said draw and meld one card, then draw and meld the second card.

With another message from Chris,
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10029146#10029146
with draw and reveal 4 cards, you said draw 4 cards, and then reveal them.

Which grouping is correct?


In the first case, I interpret it as doing the (Draw and Meld) X times.

Ex: I have only base cards in my hand, I draw and meld the first card (an echoes card). After that first draw and meld is complete, I still only have base cards, so my second draw and meld, and any subsequent draw and meld would be all echoes cards.

In the second case, I interpret as (Draw and Reveal) X times as well.

However, after the first card is drawn and revealed, I count the first card revealed as now being part of my hand. So any card drawn and revealed after the first one MUST be base (it's possible the first one might be base as well).

I think the difference between the first case and the second case is that the hand state changes in the second case, whereas the hand state remains the same in the first case.

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Simon Skov
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Right. Draw and Reveal is an exception of sorts, because the cards stay in your hand, possibly changing the type of card you will draw.
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Chris Cieslik
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Added parentheses
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Liam
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Moved to Innovation: Echoes of the Past
 
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Kenneth Morefield
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Hello everyone.

My wife and I started playing this game and really enjoy it. I have a question about drawing that I haven't found addressed anywhere yet.

If you are in a drawing situation where you not are not *required* to draw an Echoes card, must you draw a base card? Or can you always choose to draw an Echoes card instead?

For example, say I have one base and one Echoes card in my hand. I enact "The Wheel" on my board (Draw 2 cards). Am I required to draw two base cards, or may I choose to draw one Echoes card and one base card or even two Echoes cards?

To clarify, here are some situations where I might prefer to draw an Echoes card:

1) I am close to scoring an achievement with bonuses or hexagons (icons), and only Echoes cards have those items.

2) I have cards splayed and I want to maximize the changes of being able to have Echo effects (say if it is a draw and tuck).

3) I have a higher aged card on my board than other player(s) and don't want to deplete the base cards in a lower level (allowing opponents to draw at a higher level).

4) I am behind in points and I don't want to draw out all the 10s, ending the game. [This came up when I enacted a card, I forget which, that required me to draw and tuck a card for every three factories and *repeat* if one of the cards were green. Since I had something like eighteen factories in a two player game, I was drawing and tucking six cards and one of them was green. This added *more* factories to the board and so then I was drawing and tucking seven or eight and *repeating* if one was green. So this was basically forcing me to run out the entire deck at each level. If I depleted the 10s, we'd be done and my opponent would win (she had more points scored). However, if I tucked *Echoes* cards, that would give me enough bonuses and icons to immediately claim those achievements. It might also increasing my score (through bonuses) enough that I would pass her score and win the game. In that scenario, which player won the game turned on the interpretation of the drawing rule and whether I *had* to draw a base card or could choose to draw either a base or an Echoes card.]

If anyone has any thoughts on this or has tried it either way, please let me know. Playing it as though you *have* to draw a base card seems to mean (in the two player game) that you end up not using very many of the Echoes cards.
 
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Chris Cieslik
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There's never a choice -- when you have a card draw, you're either drawing an Echoes card or a Base card.

When the card is drawn:

If you have cards in your hand, and none are Echoes, draw an Echoes card.

Otherwise (if your hand is empty, or if you have a hand and it contains at least one Echoes card) draw a Base card.
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