Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
64 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Up Front» Forums » General

Subject: A Poll for the Up Front community- proposed changes for 2.0. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought it would be interesting to see the views of the Up Front community on the planned changes to Up Front 2.0 (reprint, whatever you wanna call it).

Now the poll questions come from http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/884458/up-front-a-authorized.... They are the only authorized changes that I know of that we've been told about. If others come along I'll update this poll.


Please skip question 4 and 9, they are no longer relevant (polls can't be edited otherwise I'd delete it)


Do you approve of the following changes?
Poll
1. Weapons separated from soldiers.
Yes
Indifferent
No
2. Relative Range being changed to Distance Token: 5 is now far away and 0 is "point-blank" range.
Yes
Indifferent
No
3. Tapping, rotating, terrain to indicate when entrenched.
Yes
Indifferent
No
4. Tapping, rotating, personality card to indicate crewed.
Yes
Indifferent
No
5. Action decks for different theaters will have different backs.
Yes
Indifferent
No
6. Multiple scenes per action (more than 1 movement scene, 1 rally scene, 1 fire scene...)
Yes
Indifferent
No
7. Cower scene has been removed and replaced with a cower bar with appropriate nation symbols in that bar.
Yes
Indifferent
No
8. Rule reminders on the cards will be expanded and clarified where appropriate.
Yes
Indifferent
No
9. Personality cards increased in size to the same as action deck- AFVs larger than action deck.
Yes
Indifferent
No
      217 answers
Poll created by DiploGuy
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Janik-Jones
Canada
Waterloo
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Up Front fan, Cats were once worshipped as gods and they haven't forgotten this, Combat Commander series fan, The Raven King (game publisher) ... that's me!, Fields of Fire fan
badge
Slywester Janik, awarded the Krzyż Walecznych (Polish Cross of Valour), August 1944
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I did answer the poll in my role as a player of 29 years and a die-hard fan of the game. Interestingly, except for one question (3, which is almost tied), my answers as a player corresponded exactly with the general consensus of the voters.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
Grosskarlbach
Rhineland-Pfalz
flag msg tools
Phirax's Magical Box of Hot
badge
Keats and Yeats are on your side, but you lose... because Wilde is on mine.
Avatar
mb
DaveyJJ wrote:
I did answer the poll in my role as a player of 29 years and a die-hard fan of the game. Interestingly, except for one question (3, which is almost tied), my answers as a player corresponded exactly with the general consensus of the voters.


My guess is that most of the voters have extensive experience with the game and are long time fans. These questions are not for noobies.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Cartwright
United Kingdom
Spilsby
LINCS
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phirax wrote:
DaveyJJ wrote:
I did answer the poll in my role as a player of 29 years and a die-hard fan of the game. Interestingly, except for one question (3, which is almost tied), my answers as a player corresponded exactly with the general consensus of the voters.


My guess is that most of the voters have extensive experience with the game and are long time fans. These questions are not for noobies.


Erm, never played it and didn't know anything about it till after the Airborne kickstarter. Thought it looked like a good game though and would like it to reach the Airborne crossover.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
matt way
United States
dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Because people on the internet are loathe to share their opinions on things they know very little about?

Grin

Poliorcetes
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Tak
United States
Chapin
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The only point I really, really don't like is the AFVs being a different size. They're already all upgrading to 'standard' sized playing cards, that should be more than enough room. If they're so concerned about having rules in a quick-reference format, a separate quick reference sheet or card would be a better way to go about it than over-sizing the cards.

I mean I'm seriously pushing the point of fists raised above my head and being waggled in frustration over this one particular missed opportunity to fix the single biggest problem with original game:

USE ONE STANDARD FREAKING SIZE FOR ALL CARDS PLEASE!

I voted 'no' to different action scenes on the cards (within the same deck, mind, it would be cool to see the city deck be different from the woodland/summer deck, for example) but it really isn't a strong no. I like getting familiar with a game to the point where a quick glance means you know what the card is, and having the same art for each scene makes that easier for everyone.

The rest I'm either indifferent on (the lack of chits and tapping in particular, I'm sure my local opponent and I will work out our own system just like we do now, I've rarely used the chits anyway) or tend to agree with or view as a 'positive indifferent' change.

Overall, I'm super excited about the reprint.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well 6 of them I'm different from the consensus. None of which are deal breakers. I won't tap the terrain for entrenchment. I have the fan-reprint of the chits (counters, tokens) and I'll just use those.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
The loss of the chits bothers me but not nearly as much as the large personality cards does.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dave Prasse
United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I'm on the "wrong side" when it comes to the card backs having different artwork ... maybe it's just because I don't understand how each deck will differ ..

Which deck would get used if I want a US vs German battle in a heavy snow , in a city ?
if the cards have different back art , they won't be transferable from deck to deck ... what am I missing ?

dave
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Johnny Yuma wrote:
I'm on the "wrong side" when it comes to the card backs having different artwork ... maybe it's just because I don't understand how each deck will differ ..

Which deck would get used if I want a US vs German battle in a heavy snow , in a city ?
if the cards have different back art , they won't be transferable from deck to deck ... what am I missing ?

dave


Have you ever played the game? Each action deck is complete in itself, so you wouldn't transfer cards anyways.

-Ski
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Banister
United States
Acworth
Georgia
flag msg tools
Test
Each deck will also have Weather rules that can either be applied directly or randomly generated. So if you wanted to play a city deck in the winter, you can make it happen.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Johnny Yuma wrote:
I'm on the "wrong side" when it comes to the card backs having different artwork ... maybe it's just because I don't understand how each deck will differ ..

Which deck would get used if I want a US vs German battle in a heavy snow , in a city ?
if the cards have different back art , they won't be transferable from deck to deck ... what am I missing ?


What you are missing is that each action deck is a full 162 card deck, with the same random numbers and the same actions on each card. The only difference in play is each deck will have a different terrain cards, appropriate to the conditions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Malczak
United States
Fairfax
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My only 'no' was on reversing the ranges. Yes, this probably makes more intuitive sense but after 20+ years of playing it the other way it will VERY hard to change.

Besides, it was very easy before to just say 'add the range chits together' in 90% of the game situations...
4 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dave Prasse
United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Teamski wrote:


Have you ever played the game? Each action deck is complete in itself, so you wouldn't transfer cards anyways.

-Ski


Played it for years ...

I understand each deck is complete , but , we've used "replacement" terrain cards/ weather condition cards in our own decks to represent other conditions / terrain ... but the cards all had the same backs ...

with each deck representing a certain "theater" , I am not following how I'd fight a German vs American battle (Base Game ) in a City ( Brit Expansion Deck) in snow (Russian Expansion Deck)and how the different terrain/conditions/split action cards will be handled using the different decks ...which deck would be used ?

I'm sure it'll make sense when I see the rules/Action Deck !

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Johnny Yuma wrote:
Teamski wrote:


Have you ever played the game? Each action deck is complete in itself, so you wouldn't transfer cards anyways.

-Ski


Played it for years ...

I understand each deck is complete , but , we've used "replacement" terrain cards/ weather condition cards in our own decks to represent other conditions / terrain ... but the cards all had the same backs ...

with each deck representing a certain "theater" , I am not following how I'd fight a German vs American battle (Base Game ) in a City ( Brit Expansion Deck) in snow (Russian Expansion Deck)and how the different terrain/conditions/split action cards will be handled using the different decks ...which deck would be used ?

I'm sure it'll make sense when I see the rules/Action Deck !



From what Rik said, the weather issues are handled through modifiers to the cards. Also, as it was in the original game, only certain core nationalities will be shown on the cards, while additonal nations will be assigned one of the core symbols, if that makes sense.

-Ski
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Banister
United States
Acworth
Georgia
flag msg tools
Test
Each deck will display all 7 of the major nationality symbols. The Americans vs the Germans in a city deck is then straight forward. If you want to add snow, the just use the weather rules on top of the situation.

You have nothing to worry about being able to run whatever scenario you want in the new system.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dave Prasse
United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Sounds great to me ! Carry on !

That was my only question ... I figgered y'all on the inside had it handled ...

Thank You !

dave
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
One thing worries me: "Relative Range being changed to Distance Token"

I thought the Range (not Relative Range) system was unchanged and that Relative Range was being re-named "Distance"?

So you start at Range 0 (token) and move forward to Range 1 (token). In doing so, relative to an enemy group at Range 0 opposite you, you go from Distance 5 (formerly Relative Range 0) to Distance 4 (formerly Relative Range 1).

Where does the Distance token come in? Or should the question have been "Relative Range being changed to Distance"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Lloyd
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
badge
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does anybody know why the weapons are being separated from the soldiers?

I don't remember the weapons ever changing or needing to be separated. Keeping the weapons on the soldiers would seem to save a lot of fiddy-ness in the game. Separating them just adds to the confusion and general clutter on the table.

Keep the game simple and streamlined.

Peace
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thunder wrote:
Does anybody know why the weapons are being separated from the soldiers?

I don't remember the weapons ever changing or needing to be separated. Keeping the weapons on the soldiers would seem to save a lot of fiddy-ness in the game. Separating them just adds to the confusion and general clutter on the table.

Keep the game simple and streamlined.

Peace


The specific reason was to keep the card count down and allow for more flexibility for DYO scenarios. I like being able to see the soldier illustration during the game without him being pinned, personally.

-Ski
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Barbarossa wrote:
One thing worries me: "Relative Range being changed to Distance Token"

I thought the Range (not Relative Range) system was unchanged and that Relative Range was being re-named "Distance"?

So you start at Range 0 (token) and move forward to Range 1 (token). In doing so, relative to an enemy group at Range 0 opposite you, you go from Distance 5 (formerly Relative Range 0) to Distance 4 (formerly Relative Range 1).

Where does the Distance token come in? Or should the question have been "Relative Range being changed to Distance"?


Well I'll give you the direct quote from David Janik-Jones (DaveyJJ),
Distance and Range (aka "What's this RR thing?")
Another new idea being introduced in the reprint involves finally simplifying the whole idea of "Relative Range".

Groups will still start at "0" and this will be indicated by what's being called the "Distance Token".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teamski wrote:
Thunder wrote:
Does anybody know why the weapons are being separated from the soldiers?

I don't remember the weapons ever changing or needing to be separated. Keeping the weapons on the soldiers would seem to save a lot of fiddy-ness in the game. Separating them just adds to the confusion and general clutter on the table.

Keep the game simple and streamlined.

Peace


The specific reason was to keep the card count down and allow for more flexibility for DYO scenarios. I like being able to see the soldier illustration during the game without him being pinned, personally.

-Ski


Keep the card count down? Huh? This greatly increases the number of cards required. I also think this is an error. I've never been playing a particular man and thought "gosh I wish I could play him with a different gun." This simply adds another step, more decision making, for setup. It's unarguably going to slow down the setup process.

I imagine I'll always keep the weapons between the soldiers and just skip the process of handing out weapons.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Banister
United States
Acworth
Georgia
flag msg tools
DiploGuy wrote:
Keep the card count down? Huh? This greatly increases the number of cards required. I also think this is an error. I've never been playing a particular man and thought "gosh I wish I could play him with a different gun." This simply adds another step, more decision making, for setup. It's unarguably going to slow down the setup process.

I imagine I'll always keep the weapons between the soldiers and just skip the process of handing out weapons.


The total number of cards is slightly greater than before as you can greatly reduce the overall number of soldiers needed in a group when the weapons are not on the cards. I was able to create 3x Free French armies and the Vichy French army using just 50 soldiers. But yes, in the major 7 nations, it does add cards as we are adding all of the existing soldiers even though some of them are technically not necessary.

The great things about the decoupled weapons are:
1.) New weapons can be introduced later with no need for additional soldiers

2.) Endless flexibility for scenario designers to pick and choose exactly the force they want to use. Want to have a 5 Morale soldier with a Flamethrower? Fine. How about a 1 Morale with a Flamethrower? Got it. Etc. DYO just became a whole lot more fun in my opinion.

3.) Forces like the Free French and/or Tito's Partisans can use a variety of weapons from other nations without having to print a silly number of alternate cards to simulate this. Historical accuracy just increased at the cost of no additional cards. Just grab the weapons needed and go.

4.) It doesn't change any of the existing scenarios at all. Each of the existing soldiers will be combined with their normal weapons in the official scenarios. But the flexibility still remains.

5.) It reduces the overall number of chits/tokens in the game. No longer do you need weapons chits for captured weapons, unarmed chits and/or malfunction chits. All of this is handled by the cards themselves.

6.) More things open up that you don't even realize. Alan Arvold produced an alternate leaders rules set a while ago where they used historical rifles instead of their SMGs and such. Thomas Cundiff produced this set and it added a massive amount of extra cards (and it was very expensive as well). Again, this is totally unnecessary in this version as you just move whatever weapon you need to the leaders.

So while setup will take a tad bit longer, I think players will find it doesn't take as much time as they initially thought. Consider the Soviets. They have 15 or so soldiers per force but usually 12-14 of them are all using Mosin-Nagants. Since most of the weapons cards have the standard rifle on them already, it will only take an extra minute to slide those cards under the soldiers and you are ready to go.

Overall, I think long term this will turn out to be an incredible addition to the game.
13 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
yeah alright, I'm sold on the idea now.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill K
United States
Unspecified
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some suggestions for card layout...
toddbanister wrote:
The great things about the decoupled weapons are ...


Sure, that flexibility brings advantages (and some of those that you list do sound interesting), but it also brings disadvantages--longer setup time, a larger game footprint, and the fuss of making sure your cards are overlapped properly (and that they stay that way throughout the game, through every pin/rally flip, through every fat-fingered bump, assistant crewman assignments, etc.). In the images below, notice how far apart a real player keeps his Avalon Hill personality cards versus how tightly packed the personality cards are in the Kickstarter video.

There's another subtle aesthetic effect, too, and that's how strongly--in the original game--the terrain and movement cards stood out. Conversely, in the Kickstarter video, the Terrain/Movement cards are visually dwarfed by all the images of the soldiers, images that--while nicely drawn--convey no game-play information. At the same time, the huge swaths of terrain in which these men are crouching is relegated to a dinky postage-stamp window in the single Action card in front of them.



[Note: I captured a couple images of the Kickstarter video for illustration purposes only. If this is a problem, let me know and I'll delete them.]

Notice also how large the Terrain image is on the Avalon Hill cards vs. how cropped the Terrain image is on the Kickstarter cards, which exacerbates this effect. I'm not much of an artist, but to convey the "presence" of terrain, to make it POP out at the player, why not go edge-to-edge with the Terrain cards? Consider these two cards:









An Altered version of the Kickstarter image, substituting the above, edge-to-edge Terrain cards, to show one way to restore the dominance of the Action Cards:


I find the notes on the Avalon Hill cards too cryptic to help me much, so I think you could do away with them. Why not provide two or three cheat cards with all of these notes and leave the Action cards clean?

Font Size: please increase the font size on the Personality cards (especially the Morale, CCV, and KIA values, and the SL/ASL designators--a splash of color for this latter would be nice!) and on the weapon cards (especially the Firepower table and the weapon name). And on the Action cards the RNC numbers seem smaller than they need to be--it'd be great if the opponent could read them, too.



ALL CAPS: I like how you avoiding using all caps for the personality card names, well done! I'd like to see that in the Action Card titles too, as ALL CAPS ARE HARDER TO READ.

Effective use of color: whatever anyone thinks of the artwork in the original game, the color choices were effective--full color indicated Terrain, green was for the Concealed cards, gray was for Smoke, the Personality cards were colored on one side and B&W on the pinned side. This complementary choice of colors let you see what was going on with just a glance. In the Kickstarter video, though, most of the cards have a similar coloring and layout to each other: a player has to look hard at the play area to see what's what.

I'm not suggesting limiting the use of color to match that in the original game, but I'm encouraging functionality over form: perhaps save browns and greens for Terrain, use red for Fire cards, use gray for Smoke, keep the black scope circle for Snipers, choose Blue sky, say, for movement, and perhaps a yellow tint for Rally.

I'm glad Up Front is coming back into print. I don't mean to sound negative, but I wanted to raise my comments now so that, hopefully, the final product will be even better!
10 
 Thumb up
1.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.