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Subject: 1-Click to Draw - Too Narrow? rss

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Aaron Freeman
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In particular the argument that when deck building one should judge a card given the fact that it must first be drawn for a click and then played for a click. I have heard this argument numerous times as of late, which I feel affects the meta directly.

I pose this question, is the 1 Click to Draw argument valid? For the Runner? For the Corp? Personally I feel that it is somewhat misleading, especially when applied to the Corporation. Given that the Corporation actually only has three actions they can perform per turn with a required draw, they often do not "spend" a click to draw.

What is your opinion?
 
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James W
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Consider that the Corp has 4 clicks per turn. The first click spent is a mandatory Draw a Card action.
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Sky Zero
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kingjames01 wrote:
Consider that the Corp has 4 clicks per turn. The first click spent is a mandatory Draw a Card action.


I thought you draw and then have 4 clicks to spend during your turn. Have I been playing wrong?
 
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James W
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skyzero wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Consider that the Corp has 4 clicks per turn. The first click spent is a mandatory Draw a Card action.


I thought you draw and then have 4 clicks to spend during your turn. Have I been playing wrong?


Yes. Neither faction starts their turn in that manner.
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ɹɹǝʞ uɐɥʇɐu
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The Corp only has 3 clicks to actually choose what to do.

Hence the click tracker only having three.
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Robbie M.
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The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.
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Beyer
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TheBosZ wrote:
The Corp only has 3 clicks to actually choose what to do.

Hence the click tracker only having three.

I find that click tracker rather silly.
We use the runner tracker for both sides. When the corp is done rezzing cards and gaining 'start of turn' credits then the corp draws a card and the tracker is recorded on 1. This is a very easy reminder that the mandatory draw is done, whether it's a game-mechanical click or not.
It's quite important to keep track of that first card draw and you might as well do it with the runner's click tracker. It's much more handy than bumbling about in the 'beginning of turn phase' and then forget to draw that first card because you are hell-bent on the corp not having four actual clicks.
 
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Aaron Freeman
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But if it is mandatory does it weigh as heavily as it does for the Runner who has the luxury of choosing? I know that as the corporation there have been times where I would have loved to not draw a card, but you don't have a choice.

Netrunner's economy is based on clicks which denote a plethora of actions each side can take. A corp player does not spend a click once per turn to draw, which negates most of the weight from the 1-Click to Draw argument.

I don't think that the click to draw argument is valid unless you spend one of your three actions to draw. For example, Beanstalk Royalty: 1 click to draw, 1 click to play, net one credit/ save one action. Not very impressive.

But, I would argue if the corporation drew it compulsively (as they must draw once per turn)it should not weigh as heavily as it does on the runner. For a runner has the choice of using one of their clicks (which could make them money) on taking the gamble of drawing a card, while the corporation does not. For the corp. a Beanstalk Royalty often looks more like this: 1 click to play, gain two credits/save two actions.

In fact from my own experience, you only really want to spend one of your three actions drawing when you are looking for ice or agendas, or to pad out your hand. If your goal was to make money, why spend one of your precious three clicks when you are required to draw each turn? A corporation is better off just spending the clicks on cash and waiting to see what they draw.

Edit- Grammar and punctuation
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Peter O
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StarSix wrote:
In particular the argument that when deck building one should judge a card given the fact that it must first be drawn for a click and then played for a click. I have heard this argument numerous times as of late, which I feel affects the meta directly.

I pose this question, is the 1 Click to Draw argument valid? For the Runner? For the Corp? Personally I feel that it is somewhat misleading, especially when applied to the Corporation. Given that the Corporation actually only has three actions they can perform per turn with a required draw, they often do not "spend" a click to draw.

What is your opinion?


To actually answer your questions and not the rules one...

I think the argument has a reasonable basis. The corp can still choose to spend other clicks for one card and which leaves us with 1 click = 1 card the easiest and most reasonable valuation. That said, including this in the evaluation of a card is a rule of thumb and better players will know when to break it.

Take a imaginary deck where any 6 cards will lead to a corp win. In this extreme example the cost of "drawing" a card is pointless as the game automatically draws you the required cards and the corp wins. Such a deck would have to be either some combo style win or a case where each card is extremely efficient that while it still may take some turns to win, the game is essentially over. In both cases extreme card quality advantage throughout the deck eliminates the need for more drawing.

Scaling it back to our actual cards, both sides still need cards to win. While the corp gets the mandatory draw any card evaluation needs to consider that the card in question is still taking up a corp resource (the mandatory draw for the turn). I could see an argument being made that this mandatory draw should be valued at 4/5 a click or even 6/5 a click due to its mandatory nature. But the issue at hand is the value of the mandatory draw and not the value of the cards. Whatever you set the value to for your strategy, why should it not apply evenly across all your cards? Your cards may have different composite value after other things are factored in, but in order to get it into your hand, they're all the same.

So why factor it in? Percent gain on investment is probably the best way to see it. Does Anonymous Tip get you 1 or 2 extra cards? That's a sizable percentage difference. Without lots of other operation draw cards to compare to, the question is hard to answer. But your answer determines whether or not it earns its place in your deck. Ignoring one of its costs may lead you to a bad answer.
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Lou Lessing
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People definitely make that argument too much. It's relevant to economy cards, which are compared in terms of pure efficiency, but for anything else, while it is true, it's a drawback shared by literally every card in the game, so saying it doesn't mean all that much.
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James W
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roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.
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Robbie M.
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kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.
 
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James W
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roborob wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.


So what you mean to say, is that there is NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between these two perspectives.
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kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.


So what you mean to say, is that there is NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between these two perspectives.

There is a difference in corner cases and design space for future cards. For most practical purposes, there is not a difference.
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James W
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ElAdoranSureshot wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.


So what you mean to say, is that there is NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between these two perspectives.

There is a difference in corner cases and design space for future cards. For most practical purposes, there is not a difference.


Elaborate on this. I'd like to hear more.
 
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kingjames01 wrote:
ElAdoranSureshot wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.


So what you mean to say, is that there is NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between these two perspectives.

There is a difference in corner cases and design space for future cards. For most practical purposes, there is not a difference.


Elaborate on this. I'd like to hear more.

If for example a card said something like "When you spend a click to draw a card, gain 1 credit." Well, that wouldn't apply to the initial draw the Corp gets.

(That said, I agree that there really isn't a difference beyond just knowing the Corp isn't spending a click to draw.)
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Samuel Hinz
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or perhaps:

Before your first click, you may discard to (insert cool ability here)


This would mean you could look at the mandatory card draw before deciding to discard.

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Andrew Bartosh

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There is an argument for it as a Runner. There is also an argument for the fact that using the exact math too often causes problems because of Wyldside and Disel disrupting that math.
 
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James W
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Azgard12 wrote:

If for example a card said something like "When you spend a click to draw a card, gain 1 credit." Well, that wouldn't apply to the initial draw the Corp gets.

(That said, I agree that there really isn't a difference beyond just knowing the Corp isn't spending a click to draw.)


Yeah, I agree. It would make a difference if drawing a card was a condition for some ability. I also agree that the solution would be to exclude the mandatory draw.
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Robbie M.
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kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
roborob wrote:
The Runner has 4 clicks.
The Corp has 3 clicks.
The Corp has a mandatory draw. He doesn't have "4 clicks and must spend 1 click to draw a card first leaving him with 3 clicks". It's a subtle difference.


Exactly what is the difference? Maybe the difference is just too subtle for me.


No difference really, but it may matter when determining the timing of card effects, actual or hypothetical.


So what you mean to say, is that there is NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between these two perspectives.

Yes, even though the corps draw phase has it's own section in the Timing Structure of Turns. The corps action phase is given it's own section next.
 
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Brian
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I personally really dislike this thinking, even more so for the corp than the runner.
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R. Sangalang
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StarSix wrote:
In particular the argument that when deck building one should judge a card given the fact that it must first be drawn for a click and then played for a click. I have heard this argument numerous times as of late, which I feel affects the meta directly.

I pose this question, is the 1 Click to Draw argument valid? For the Runner? For the Corp? Personally I feel that it is somewhat misleading, especially when applied to the Corporation. Given that the Corporation actually only has three actions they can perform per turn with a required draw, they often do not "spend" a click to draw.

What is your opinion?


I evaluate a card as investment, return, and flexibility.

investment: action to draw the card, the action to play, the cost in credits, the cost in life (runner) or HQ protection (corp), the time it takes to realize the return, risks, and the list goes on.

return: gain in credits, saved/gained actions, information, card quality, threat potential, and the list goes on.

flexibility: when the card will be good and when it will be bad.

Both investment and return are very hard to evaluate since there are situations where those factors are extremely different. For example, in a deck that doesn't rely on card combos and is running plenty of drawing (diesel, wyldside), the cost of drawing cards is lower than that of an action. However, in a deck where credits and economy come with more than half the deck, another card that has credits returned has less value.

The only card that I know of that doesn't necessarily cost a click to play is Snare! (doesn't need to be installed to have an effect). So while I don't necessarily look at the click to play as a cost, I really notice if I get value without even playing it. Ambushes have the same effect. If a runner sees one of them, you have already gotten value out of the card without playing it (which would cost a click).

Assets in general also have inherent value in the fact that they can be posed as an agenda. Forcing the runner to run may gain you more of a lead in credits than whatever the card does. Comparing an asset with an operation with lower cost and better return would involve having to think about that possibility.

In short, evaluating the fact that you will probably have to draw and spend an action to play the card is not misleading, however, it's only a small part in a huge equation. It's a factor that I don't pay much attention too unless the deck or comparison card warrants it.
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The underlying constant in Netrunner are clicks. This was even true for the old version most of the time (excepting specialiced action gain decks). The specific cost for a card our credit largely depends on your deck composition. At the moment we only have Wyldside and Diesel but this might change with future sets. But with a Wyldside in your starting hand you'll be getting close to 0.5 clicks per card.

So the answer is: It depends. On your deck. With the limited selection of cards that we have at the moment there's not much deviation from 1:1:1 for clicks/cards/credits (used to be a/b/c on the old version). But in my expectation this will change somewhat. But hopefully not as much as in the original game. I don't really want to see BSB-powered Chiba decks again (0.25 actions per card, 8 bits/credits per action)...
 
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Billy Martin
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I think the 1-card = 1-click is a good rule of thumb, but that is all it is. I would argue that in reality a card in hand is worth slightly less than one click, for both the corp and the runner.

There is a certain value to "getting back" the click you originally used to draw a card and turning it into a credit. Remember that you have to draw cards in order to get the tools you need, and sometimes you will inevitably draw a card that is useless to you. So having cards that efficiently turn themselves into credits is more useful than merely breaking even.

This is why Easy Mark is such a powerful card. It isn't just, "draw, play, 3 bits, net gain 1 bit" it's really more than that because it turns the turn you spent drawing it (possibly looking for the icebreaker you needed) back into a credit that you can now use to make a run.

This is why you can build runner decks where your primary strategy is to just draw cards until you get what you need. And because most of these cards (East Mark, Sure Gamble, Armitage) actually yield better than break even efficiency means that you can actually use your deck itself as a credit engine. For a good example of this, check out Orange Devil's Shaper deck.

On the corp side, getting back the action you used to draw and turning it into a credit is even more powerful since you are required to draw a card every turn. As good as Easy Mark is, Beanstalk Royalties is even better. Required card drawing, either from being the Corp or from Wyldside, enhances the importance of retroactively turning those cards into credits that you need to rez ICE or make runs or advance agendas.
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jopejope wrote:
I think the 1-card = 1-click is a good rule of thumb, but that is all it is. I would argue that in reality a card in hand is worth slightly less than one click, for both the corp and the runner.

There is a certain value to "getting back" the click you originally used to draw a card and turning it into a credit. Remember that you have to draw cards in order to get the tools you need, and sometimes you will inevitably draw a card that is useless to you. So having cards that efficiently turn themselves into credits is more useful than merely breaking even.

This is why Easy Mark is such a powerful card. It isn't just, "draw, play, 3 bits, net gain 1 bit" it's really more than that because it turns the turn you spent drawing it (possibly looking for the icebreaker you needed) back into a credit that you can now use to make a run.

This is why you can build runner decks where your primary strategy is to just draw cards until you get what you need. And because most of these cards (East Mark, Sure Gamble, Armitage) actually yield better than break even efficiency means that you can actually use your deck itself as a credit engine. For a good example of this, check out Orange Devil's Shaper deck.

On the corp side, getting back the action you used to draw and turning it into a credit is even more powerful since you are required to draw a card every turn. As good as Easy Mark is, Beanstalk Royalties is even better. Required card drawing, either from being the Corp or from Wyldside, enhances the importance of retroactively turning those cards into credits that you need to rez ICE or make runs or advance agendas.

thumbsup This is what I attempted to write up over the weekend a number of times.
 
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