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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Loki, Cruel Ruler rss

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Tony Pecorelli
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Loki's Cruel Ruler Fight effect states:

Defeat a Villain in the City for free.

How free is free? Is it just the attack value? Or does it override other effects, too? Specifically, a villain like Venom requires a Covert hero to defeat. Does this card override those extra restrictions?

Thanks!

 
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Matthew McFarland
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Good question, I can see both sides. I'd default to reading the card as literally as possible, though, which means you'd defeat a villain for free no matter what.
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Daniel Corban
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As usual, it seems you should interpret the card literally. It isn't a "fight", it is a straight up defeat. You simply choose a villain and place it in your discard pile, ignoring all "fight" text on the villain.
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Michael Denman
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That came up with us yesterday and we all instantly assumed that just meant you didn't have to have any Attack. We never even considered you'd skip the Fight text.
 
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Tony Pecorelli
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Literally is the way I want to interpret it. I was playing a game where the scheme was the Bank Robbery and Venom was on the Bank when 3 or 4 scheme twists and many of the Bystanders came out of the villain deck. He had, I think, 13 Bystanders on him when I tentatively used Cruel Ruler on him. So that is a possible 18 victory points for that solo game. Hence why I'm curious.
 
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Jarrod Babel
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I agree with Daniel, treat the cards literally, in this case it says defeat a villain in the city for free, that's it, no other condition is needed. It doesn't say fight or any reference to 'fighting' a villain. So take which ever one you want.
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J Brenner
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Great question, in this case you would be able to defeat a villain with no fight effect or attack points. So you could in fact defeat Venom without a covert hero.
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Tony Pecorelli
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Brenzor wrote:
Great question, in this case you would be able to defeat a villain with no fight effect or attack points. So you could in fact defeat Venom without a covert hero.


Thank you, sir! While everyone who posted made sense and I thank them too, it is always nice to hear it officially.

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AJ Harris
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I understand that this post has long been answered, but I am just confused by the wording here. Normally, your attack does "fight" damage, so you do whatever the "fight" rule is for that card, if any. But what we're talking about here is "defeating" a card, a seemingly different beast. I get that you don't trigger the "fight" effect when "defeating" a villain for free or with Black Widow's card or whatever...but there are definitely villains that say "You may not defeat [whomever] without a [insert type here] Hero." I'm not trying to go against Brenzor's official decision, hahaha, but it seems like the wording of their cards would explicitly NOT allow for a free "defeat" if I didn't have, say, an X Hero, or whichever.

Maybe new cards should say that "You may not fight [whomever]..." instead of "defeat." Or at least use the common Fight effect look to show that whatever the stipulation is, it only comes into play when expending fight points.
 
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Tony Pecorelli
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Hey AJ, I was playing recently and noticed exactly what you are talking about. I remembered this thread and thought that was curious that the card I saw used the words "cannot defeat" which seemed to directly contradict the answer I got. I don't have the cards in front of me so I don't remember which villain it was, but I do remember thinking it was odd.

And now I'm perusing the forums and I see the thread was bumped, so I'm glad I'm not the only one confused.
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Darth Ed
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I presume you two are referring to the Blob or Venom, which you are quite correct say you cannot "defeat" unless you have an X-Men hero or a covert hero, respectively. The card text doesn't say about fighting them.

A very literal interpretation of the text on these cards indicates that the Loki, Black Widow, Nick Fury, etc. cards that allow you to "defeat" a villain for free are affected by this requirement. So I think you need to have an X-Men hero in your hand or in play before playing Black Widow or Nick Fury or utilizing Loki's effect to defeat the Blob.

I suspect the common interpretation is that you can't *fight* the Blob unless you have an X-Men hero as well, and that's most likely the designer's intent. I know that's how my group has played it.

We know "defeat" and "fight" are not the same thing, so how do we resolve this? I would say that the "defeat" action (the act of putting a villain in your victory pile) always takes place after you "fight" a villain (the act of consuming accumulated attack points matching the fight cost of the villain and then resolving the villain's "Fight" effect, if any).

So a "fight" is always followed by "defeat", but "defeat" is not always preceded by a "fight" (as with Black Widow or Nick Fury and other cards which say to "defeat" a villain for free).

So when the Blob says you cannot defeat him unless you have an X-Men hero, it basically applies to fighting him as well. It would be clearer if the card said "fight or defeat", but designers always like to say things with as few words as possible.

Does that make sense?

Basically, I think J Brenner was incorrect above when he said Loki could defeat Venom without a covert hero. From what he wrote, I think he thought Venom's requirement was a "Fight" effect. It is not. Venom has an "Escape" effect, but no "Fight" effect and the Venom card says he cannot be defeated without a covert hero, using Loki or otherwise, in my opinion.
 
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AJ Harris
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DarthEd wrote:
Basically, I think J Brenner was incorrect above when he said Loki could defeat Venom without a covert hero. From what he wrote, I think he thought Venom's requirement was a "Fight" effect. It is not. Venom has an "Escape" effect, but no "Fight" effect and the Venom card says he cannot be defeated without a covert hero, using Loki or otherwise, in my opinion.


Ya, I actually agree with you, and that's why I was so shocked to see Blob's card not be a fight effect. Maybe further iterations of these "free villain" types of attacks should simply say "Take any villain from the city and put it in your Victory pile." This way it turns the villain more into a 'card' to have, rather than a villain to "defeat."

I think that my house rule will be not to allow the defeat of these villains without the proper card-in-hand anyway. It makes the game more challenging, and seems to follow exact card wording better.
 
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Devin Low
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Hello,

In the rules sheet for the Legendary: Dark City expansion, we are giving a new, explicit answer on this topic, to try to be more clear. It says:
Quote:
“Defeat”: When a card tells you to “defeat an enemy,” you still do that enemy’s Fight effect. You ignore restrictions like Zero and Forearm.

You can find the rules sheet here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/91656/dark-city-rule-s...

With this clarification, a card like Loki: Cruel Ruler that tells you to "Defeat a Villain in the City for free" can defeat a card like Venom that says "You can’t defeat Venom unless you have a [COVERT] Hero." If you use an effect like this to defeat a Villain, you still perform that Villain's Fight effects.

All the best,

Devin Low meeple
Designer, Legendary
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