Recommend
14 
 Thumb up
 Hide
59 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Episode X Preview: Insurgency Wargames rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


Episode X of Guns, Dice, Butter will feature a panel discussion including Mark Herman, Brian Train, Volko Ruhnke regarding politics and war; specifically insurgencies. We'll discuss how they insurgencies are modeled in wargames, what works/doesn't and a wide variety of games published and those in the pipeline.

In preperation for that episode, see this link for a few data files: http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dd6d36f/205

Episode X will also include, hopefully, an interview with the lead(s) for a new wargaming company and the usual GDB odds and ends.

Hope to publish in mid December.
17 
 Thumb up
1.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This was a lot of fun to do!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It was; you were great, Mr.Train. Had fun mixing it: the Yangs and Congs will make an appearance on Episode 10
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey, watch it with the worship-words!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Volko Ruhnke
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
... Not to mention the Hill People. So much educational going on in 1960s Star Trek.

Yall ever see the documentary "How William Shatner Saved the World"? (I'm guessing required viewing by British Columbia educators.)

vfr

[Edited to remove my IPad's ignorant insertion of an apostrophe into "yall".]
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heh, well, it has been running on cable TV around here lately.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam H
Canada
Québec
flag msg tools
Every weirdo in the world is on my wavelength
badge
We carry a new world here, in our hearts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looking forward to listening to this discussion! This is a topic that interests me a lot.

I had a chance to play Brian Train's Shining Path: The Struggle for Peru at our local convention recently, and while I got my butt kicked as the government player, it was pretty interesting.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Volko wrote:
... Not to mention the Hill People. So much educational going on in 1960s Star Trek.

Yall ever see the documentary "How William Shatner Saved the World"? (I'm guessing required viewing by British Columbia educators.)

vfr

[Edited to remove my IPad's ignorant insertion of an apostrophe into "yall".]


A friend got me "The Physics of Star Trek" for Christmas one year; a good read.

------

Found this on "the hill people".

The Hill People was one of the tribe on the planet Neural. The female leaders of the Hill People were shamans known as the Kahn-ut-tu. When the USS Enterprise visited the planet in 2268, the Hill People were warring with a tribe from a nearby village, armed with flintlock firearms provided to them the prior year by a group of Klingons. Captain Kirk violated the Prime Directive and armed the Hill People, helping them to fight the Klingon-backed tribes. (TOS: "A Private Little War").

...if you're going to violate the prime directive, why not provide a few potato diggers (Colt-Browning M1895)?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Herr Dr wrote:
...if you're going to violate the prime directive, why not provide a few potato diggers (Colt-Browning M1895)?


This would constitute "escalation" and violate the primary codicil of the prime directive: having your proxies win a brushfire war is a bad thing as it means you can't make a profit selling them additional arms and also thereby increase your local influence.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Sam, glad you liked it!

The system used in Shining Path is used, with variations, in several other games of mine - Tupamaro, Algeria: The War of Independence 1954-1962, and the upcoming Greek Civil War (Fiery Dragon) and Kandahar (Decision Games).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
According to wiki....

In the universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive, Starfleet's General Order #1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of alien civilizations.

It has special implications, however, for civilizations that have not yet developed the technology for interstellar spaceflight ("pre-warp"), since no primitive culture can be given or exposed to any information regarding advanced technology or the existence of extraplanetary civilizations, lest this exposure alter the natural development of the civilization. Although this was the only application stated by Captain Kirk in "The Return of the Archons", by the 24th Century, it had been indicated to include purposeful efforts to improve or change in any way the natural course of such a society, even if that change is well-intentioned and kept completely secret. "Pre-warp" is defined as any culture which has not yet attained warp drive technology and is thus, implicitly, unaware of the existence of alien races. Starfleet allows scientific missions to investigate and secretly move amongst pre-warp civilizations as long as no advanced technology is left behind, and there is no interference with events or no revelation of their identity. This can usually be accomplished with hidden observation posts, but Federation personnel may disguise themselves as local sentient life and interact with them.

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet regulation, and thus only applies to Starfleet officers. Civilian citizens of the Federation are not bound by it. In fact, if a Federation citizen has chosen to personally interfere with another civilization, Starfleet is powerless to remove that individual, under penalty of court-martial.[1]

The only stated exception to the Prime Directive is the Omega Directive, in which a captain is authorized to take any means to destroy Omega Molecules when detected. Whenever the Omega Directive is in force, the Prime Directive is effectively rescinded.[2]


...you could use "a contractor" to provide the potato diggers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Volko Ruhnke
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The way I recall Kirk explaining it in the episode, it seemed very much an allegory for the McNamara/LBJ graduated escalation against North Vietnam. After all, the Enterprise did not want to risk the Klingons coming in in force. The point of the muskets was merely to contain the villagers, not defeat them. vfr
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All of Star Trek was an allegory for something or the other; no room for allegories now in the Age of Kim Kardashian.

And why didn't the Federation just go Carthage on the city people? Would have been more effective. Maybe the Federation thought there was a budding Jeffersonian democracy begging to be instilled by the insurgent hill people at the point of bayonet (despite their uppity women folk dabbling in witchcraft and running the tribe). Really, Kirk should have just called "the contractors" to solve the problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dorosh
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Tactical Wargamer's Journal
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Herr Dr wrote:


...if you're going to violate the prime directive, why not provide a few potato diggers (Colt-Browning M1895)?


Because the propmaster at Desilu would have had no idea how to find one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Herr Dr wrote:


...if you're going to violate the prime directive, why not provide a few potato diggers (Colt-Browning M1895)?


Because the propmaster at Desilu would have had no idea how to find one.


AGREE! And, Star Trek was on a low budget; Gene Roddenberry probably loaned the set some flintlocks from his personal collection.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Volko Ruhnke
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, that episode they had blown it all on the white monkey suit.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder if Roddenberry ever used the white monkey suit at a New Years Eve party.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Volko Ruhnke
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually I think he bought it for a New Years Eve party, then charged it to the production budget.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Langley Kitchings
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey, has anyone done a counterinsurgency game on Cambodia in the 70s?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Short answer, no.
The insurgencies in Cambodia and Laos appear as sidelights in a couple of larger scale Vietnam games, e.g. No Trumpets No Drums which is not hard to obtain, or Lam Son which is very difficult to get and a terrible game besides.

I just finished reading "The Blood Road", John Prados' book on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and got interested in possibly doing a Laos or Cambodia game - will have to wait a bit as I am tied up with other projects right now!

Brian
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll bet no one has done anything on the Vietnam-Cambodia War '78? or the Sino-Vietnamese War of '79? Would be an interesting game to see the two conflicts linked.

Just wondering, was there any chance that China would have actually tried to topple the Vietnamese gov't (occupy the capital)? Or, was it just to give the vietnamese a decent beatdown? (although Vietnam gave China a pretty good bloody nose if I remember correctly - almost pulling a Fin on the big bad Russian bear).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Terence Co's article in the most recent S&T is the best single writeup I have seen on the war - I know he is very interested in it, and is one of the few owners of the only game ever made on the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979, China-Vietnam War.

This game was made by some gamers in Hong Kong and is not available in English, not a particularly interesting game either except for the subject matter.

The 1979 war also got a scenario in the contemporary SPI game The China War, but the fighting is confined to a front about seven hexes wide.

I don't think the Chinese government wanted to destroy the DRV particularly, they tried that hundreds of years before and it didn't work them.

I remember sticking pins in the large National Geographic map of Vietnam I had on my bedroom wall in 1979, trying to puzzle out what was going on but there was barely any press coverage of the war at the time.

Brian
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Brian. Yeah, you would think a game with Vietnam invading Cambodia and then possibly triggering Chinese intervention (based upon game events in Cambodia) would be quite interesting - maybe something where if the Vietnam and China players don't achieve X they suffer a change in leadership.

USA would be sitting this one out :-) I can't imagine any other country (maybe Laos?) that would have been dragged into the fight. Would actually be a decent 3 player game on a very off the beaten track conflict.

---------------------

Should get episode X posted either late tomorrow or friday.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Train
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Laos would have been part of it, if only because Laos at the time was a Chinese client state. I can't recall the sceanario provisions but the PRC could try a hook through northern Laos, and the Laotian Army was represented as 3 weak divisions.

The China War map shows part of Thailand and Laos, all of Burma, Bangladesh, Nepal and eastern India, as well as all of Korea. I remember making up numbers of counters for the armies of these countries, but never got ti together to try some kind of regional game.

However, I have made up a variant for the game that postulates the People's Republic splitting into six parts, ruled by antagonistic warlord factions, with randomized foreing interventions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dockter
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"However, I have made up a variant for the game that postulates the People's Republic splitting into six parts, ruled by antagonistic warlord factions, with randomized foreing interventions."

That sounds like a Yang dream...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.