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Subject: [R] Has science finally caught up with Genesis in the explanation of the creation? rss

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Rich Charters
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Below statements in bold are direct quotes from Genesis. Along with a potential explanation.

Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged

Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

Earth brought forth grass Consistent with the evolution of plant life. Genesis says that "the earth" brought forth the grass.

Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. Consistent with the theory of evolution that life evolved first in water.

God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Consistent with the theory of evolution. That animals were created ‘after their kind.’ In other words, cats came from other cats, etc....

Perhaps the Genesis explanation of the creation wasn't as far off base as some thought it was? Thoughts?
 
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richcharters wrote:
Below statements in bold are direct quotes from Genesis. Along with a potential explanation.

Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged

Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

Earth brought forth grass Consistent with the evolution of plant life. Genesis says that "the earth" brought forth the grass.

Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. Consistent with the theory of evolution that life evolved first in water.

God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Consistent with the theory of evolution. That animals were created ‘after their kind.’ In other words, cats came from other cats, etc....

Perhaps the Genesis explanation of the creation wasn't as far off base as some thought it was? Thoughts?


Make it vague enough, you can make anything work.
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Clearly, the 4th-century theologians who wrote the Book of Genesis were trying to explain evolutionary theory over a millennium before it was discovered. The Catholic Church: they KNOW shit, man.
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richcharters wrote:

Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged

Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

You're going to have to flip the order of those and fudge them a bit more to make that work. The universe was not transparent until about 300k years after the bang.

Quote:
Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

Hmmm, I thought that in context this was about separating the the dry land from the waters? When the continental crust formed there was no water yet. Every thing was hot, molten and the crust was the first stuff to cool and float to the top (super simplified). The water came later once things had cooled down enough not to boil it off.

Quote:
God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

The supercontinent theory holds that Pangea may have not been the first and it definitely wasn't the last as its cyclical

Quote:
Earth brought forth grass Consistent with the evolution of plant life. Genesis says that "the earth" brought forth the grass.

Plants evolved first in the seas
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Boaty McBoatface
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Never understood why evolution is a problem, it does not really contradict evolution (except in the order they are created and the time frame.
 
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Daniel
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Evolution and Genesis are incompatible. Mainly, it creates a major theological problem in that evolutionary theory would require death, decay, and mutation before the fall of man into sin (Genesis 3).
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Boaty McBoatface
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dandechino wrote:
Evolution and Genesis are incompatible. Mainly, it creates a major theological problem in that evolutionary theory would require death, decay, and mutation before the fall of man into sin (Genesis 3).
Why do animals decay and die because of man's sins? Also where in genesis does it say they were without death and decay before the fall (or mutation?)?
 
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Perhaps all that stuff was just a... parable or something?
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Daniel
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Whatever your interpretive theories on Genesis 1, the main story of the Bible is "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Genesis speaks of creation and the fall of man into sin (which is portrayed as a actual historical event). In Adam all die, in Christ all who repent and trust in Christ are made alive (Romans 5:12-20)
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jmilum wrote:


Quote:
Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

Hmmm, I thought that in context this was about separating the the dry land from the waters? When the continental crust formed there was no water yet. Every thing was hot, molten and the crust was the first stuff to cool and float to the top (super simplified). The water came later once things had cooled down enough not to boil it off.

Quote:
God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

The supercontinent theory holds that Pangea may have not been the first and it definitely wasn't the last as its cyclical


Current theory points to a molten planet that starts outgassing enough CO2 to create an atmosphere that then rains water onto earth for millions of years until it has cooled the planet enough for large bodies of water to form.

Genesis also missed out on my favorite event - the formation of the Moon, when a planetoid the size of Mars smashed into earth and threw out the material that would later accrete into our moon.
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Boaty McBoatface
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dandechino wrote:
Whatever your interpretive theories on Genesis 1, the main story of the Bible is "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Genesis speaks of creation and the fall of man into sin (which is portrayed as a actual historical event). In Adam all die, in Christ all who repent and trust in Christ are made alive (Romans 5:12-20)
Why do Christian die then? So there is no such thing as a Christian martyr because they did not die, in fact they are still with us today hanging about.
 
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dandechino wrote:
Genesis speaks of creation and the fall of man into sin (which is portrayed as a actual historical event). In Adam all die, in Christ all who repent and trust in Christ are made alive (Romans 5:12-20)

Then we should be able to find the Garden of Eden and the angel with the flaming sword guarding it.
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richcharters wrote:
Below statements in bold are direct quotes from Genesis. Along with a potential explanation.

Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged

Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

Earth brought forth grass Consistent with the evolution of plant life. Genesis says that "the earth" brought forth the grass.

Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. Consistent with the theory of evolution that life evolved first in water.

God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Consistent with the theory of evolution. That animals were created ‘after their kind.’ In other words, cats came from other cats, etc....

Perhaps the Genesis explanation of the creation wasn't as far off base as some thought it was? Thoughts?

Seems like there's a lot of interpretation going on here. Also, quite a bit of cherry picking. For example, the complete Gen. 1:6-8 says: "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven." (KJV) Does that really sound like plate tectonics to you?

For an example of just how much we have to stretch to square Genesis with cosmology, let's take "Let there be light." Thinking of the big bang as a huge explosion in a void, as "Let there be light" implies, is poetic but not remotely accurate scientifically. The "explosion" of the big bang was the universe; there was no "outside space" for it to explode within. Also, the conditions of the very early Universe were like nothing we could imagine, let alone describe in any way anyone could understand two millennia ago.

You realize that creationists generally use the quote "God created great whales...after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind...." as their main argument against biological evolution? Evolution is the mechanism for generating diversity; the mutability of species is central (although on short time scales, most species do reproduce "after their kind").

Trying to reconcile Genesis 1 with modern science is doing an injustice to both science and the beautiful allegory that is Genesis.

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jmilum wrote:
[q="dandechino"]Then we should be able to find the Garden of Eden and the angel with the flaming sword guarding it.


I think it's somewhere in Vegas.
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masaakunokouchi wrote:
Make it vague enough, you can make anything work.

Make what vague? How vague is vague enough? Could you narrow "anything" down a little for us?
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Marcel
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jmilum wrote:
Then we should be able to find the Garden of Eden and the angel with the flaming sword guarding it.
I think he actualy lost the sword.
Quote:
25 And the Lord spake unto the Angel that guarded the eastern gate, saying 'Where is the flaming sword that was given unto thee?'
26 And the Angel said, 'I had it here only a moment ago, I must have put it down some where, forget my own head next.'
27 And the Lord did not ask him again.
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If your creation account does not contain any mathematics, then it can be only at best superficially similar to the current physics theories on how the universe came to be.

Most of these verses really just say "X was created", which of course is consistent with any theory about how X was created.

That's a really important way to look at ideas, which often gets overlooked when one is reading something that is written poetically. The really issue is not which scientific ideas Genesis fits with, but whether or not there are any ideas that Genesis wouldn't fit with.
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Light was created and divided before the sun and the stars were created.
 
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richcharters wrote:
Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged


Or from light, darkness emerged.
 
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Agent J
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Kevin C wrote:
Shall we look at what else is in the Genesis account?

As robigo noted, Gen1:6 states "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

Some modern translations fudge the word 'firmament' to expanse, but it's a metallurgical term for beaten metal. God is creating a dome to keep the waters above (the source of rain) from the waters below.

In Genesis 7:11 we are told that there are holes in the firmament to let rain in. In Job 37:18 and Ezekiel 1:22 we are told it is made of a crystalline material. In Job 38:22 we are told that there are storehouses for snow and hail, which is let in through windows.

Perhaps these were all figurative? Early commentators didn't read them that way. 3 Baruch talks of piercing it with a gimlet or the top of the tower of Babel. Enoch 72 talks of doors and windows which were opened to let the sun and moon through.

The Earth was also flat and the seas bounded. See Isaiah 40:22, Job 26:10 and elsewhere.

Of course if you're going to start reading all of these as figurative, you need to provide a justification for not reading the rest of Genesis in the same way.


You should just post quotes of those verses. Not one of them has anything to do with what you said.
 
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richcharters wrote:
Below statements in bold are direct quotes from Genesis. Along with a potential explanation.

Let there be light Consistent with the big bang theory....from darkness, light emerged

Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

Let the dry land appear Consistent with hot spots forming continents from the earth’s molten core

God divided the waters Consistent with plate tectonics and the theory of Pangea....that the continents separated which divided the waters

Earth brought forth grass Consistent with the evolution of plant life. Genesis says that "the earth" brought forth the grass.

Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. Consistent with the theory of evolution that life evolved first in water.

God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Consistent with the theory of evolution. That animals were created ‘after their kind.’ In other words, cats came from other cats, etc....

Perhaps the Genesis explanation of the creation wasn't as far off base as some thought it was? Thoughts?


"Consistent" isn't a very high bar to climb, especially since you seem to interpret things pretty loosely. How do you get, "the earth began to spin at current rate" from "divided the light from the darkness"?

Your interpretation of genesis as consistent with evolution is particularly interesting since many creationists view the "after their kind" as wholly inconsistent with the idea that bacteria, humans, bananas, ants and swallows share common ancestry.
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richcharters wrote:
...
Divided the light from the darkness Consistent with our current understanding of how our solar system was formed....the earth began to spin at current rate

... Thoughts?


The earth doesn't spin at a consistent rate. It is very gradually slowing down. Days and nights were shorter many millions of years ago.
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I'm interested most in what Einstein also said was the one question he would most like to know the answer to: did God have a choice when he or she created the universe - i.e. could it have been different? Einstein was referring to the laws of physics, to which everything else that exists conforms and follows from.

Assuming that our universe was indeed created (a big assumption already), my own feeling is that the answer to Einstein's question is No. Our universe can be called elegant in the way it functions, but if you're on the menu of some bigger or smarter creature up the food chain, it can, at least from your perspective, hardly be called perfect. wow ...Unless there is a grander purpose behind its 'imperfection', of course - then we're beyond any sort of human logic or reason.
 
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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chaendlmaier wrote:
What I'm wondering about is, if it could be proven with absolute scientific certainty that a scruffy dimwitted space monster the size of a tennis ball caused the Big Bang by farting in the general direction of a a singularity, whether that little ruffian would then be referred to as God. I mean clearly it created the universe as we know it.


Where did the monster come from?
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Stephen Gassett
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Jythier wrote:
chaendlmaier wrote:
What I'm wondering about is, if it could be proven with absolute scientific certainty that a scruffy dimwitted space monster the size of a tennis ball caused the Big Bang by farting in the general direction of a a singularity, whether that little ruffian would then be referred to as God. I mean clearly it created the universe as we know it.


Where did the monster come from?

This is the real problem behind invoking God as your ultimate answer - it's really no explanation at all, since the question then becomes - who or what created God, or what existed before God? If you posit that God is beyond space (and time), as St. Augustine did, what made God suddenly decide to create a universe at a particular point in his infinite existence?

The Gnostics dealt with the problem of evil by blaming it on the god of the Old Testament - who they considered to be a lesser deity, or 'demiurge'. The true God, according to them, couldn't be responsible for creating this imperfect world - he had to be completely above and beyond any incorruption.
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