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Subject: Beginner questions (renamed from Pass Rush Charts) rss

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Travis Jansen
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I've collected most of the charts needed to rate my own cards. I plan on making a card generator website for the public. That said I'm missing a few pieces.

Pass rush formula
Kicking/punting

Actually I think that's it.

Anyone who can help would be much appreciated. Thanks!
 
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michael confoy
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Re: Pass rush chart
Was this given in the rules?
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
I got a bunch of charts over at tabletop games but didn't see this chart/formula there. I'm looking for something g that shows how to rate a defender based on stats.
 
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Adam McLean
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Re: Pass rush chart
The original formula was pretty basic and the same chart was used for all defensive players:

Sacks (Rating)

6 + (3)
4-5 (2)
2-3 (1)
0-1 (0)

Unofficially, a category was added for 18+ sacks to have a 4 rating

A way that I rate players, instead of using the number of sacks, I use a percentage. For example, using the formula above, a player with 2 sacks would have a 1 rating ... however, what if he was actually better than that but was only able to play in 9 games due to injury (using the formula below, that same player would have a 2 rating). So instead, I divide the number of sacks by the number of games played, then multiply by 100 to make the number easier to read:


Formula: (Sacks / Games) * 100

Sacks (Rating)

106.26 + (4)
31.26 - 106.25 (3)
18.76 - 31.25 (2)
6.26 - 18.75 (1)
0.00 - 6.25 (0)
 
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Adam McLean
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Re: Pass rush chart
tjans wrote:
I got a bunch of charts over at tabletop games but didn't see this chart/formula there. I'm looking for something g that shows how to rate a defender based on stats.


If you got some charts at tabletop sports, open the chart for rating fumbles ... the pass rush chart is on the bottom right of that.

You can also check out the one for rating kickers, I think it has both punters and placekickers.
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Ahh ok. I wondered if it was buried somewhere else. Thank out kindly for the assistance. I could build several methods into my generator (original, percentage, etc). Do you guys make your own sets? I'm just getting into the hobby after looking for a cheaper alternative to strat.

I have the 6th editin of the rules. Seems like that should work for most sets right?
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Also, any other ratings formula updates you guys use? I would like to include any variants that I can in my notes and hopefully into the generator...
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Got the QB generator done...right now it just spits out data, but my plan is:

Give the generator a pro football ref. link and a year and it'll generate the card for you. Then paste it into excel and have it display the card...

The reason for the excel step is for you to edit and tweak the data...most of it is pretty sound, but I know some people like to change things, and also there are some subjectives like endurance and lg pass ratings...
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
For the rushing charts I got from TBT...

they all say something like:

NO, N, SG, LG
1 is SG, 18.5, 24, 64
2, 12, 23, 53
etc

I know that 1 is usually SG...so if that's the case, why do the provide a value for N? In the above examploe, they give "1 is SG" but then under the N column they give 18.5. Why is that?
 
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Adam McLean
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Re: Pass rush chart
tjans wrote:
For the rushing charts I got from TBT...

they all say something like:

NO, N, SG, LG
1 is SG, 18.5, 24, 64
2, 12, 23, 53
etc

I know that 1 is usually SG...so if that's the case, why do the provide a value for N? In the above examploe, they give "1 is SG" but then under the N column they give 18.5. Why is that?


I used to know but can't quite remember ... but I use it to determine whether a player gets a SG column (I believe the number after "1 is SG", the 18.5 in your example, is the average of all 12 numbers in the SG column). I hope everything below makes sense.

For example, the 2011 Patriots used Kevin Faulk sparingly, he had:

3.4 YPA, but only 9 yards was his longest run

So I would only give him his N column as the 9 Long does not exceed the 10.08333 that a normal 3.4 YPA would have. So his card may look something like this (but formatted properly):

NO N/SG/LG

1 9 / /
2 8 / /
3 7 / /
4 6 / /
5 5 / /
6 3 / /
7 2 / /
8 1 / /
9 1 / /
10 0 / /
11 -1 / /
12 -1 / /


Now contrast that with Bernard Scott of the 2011 Bengals, same 3.4 YPA but he had a long run of 25, so his card might look more like this:

NO N/SG/LG

1 SG / 12 / 25
2 8 / 11 / 23
3 7 / 11 / 21
4 6 / 11 / 20
5 5 / 10 / 18
6 3 / 10 / 16
7 2 / 10 / 15
8 1 / 10 / 14
9 1 / 9 / 13
10 0 / 9 / 13
11 -1 / 9 / 12
12 -1 / 9 / 12


Lastly, an example that falls right in the middle, LeRon McClain of the 2011 Chiefs, same 3.4 YPA as the others, but a long of 12 meaning it's more than the N, but doesn't exceed the highest number in the SG column, so his card might finish as:

NO N/SG/LG

1 SG / 12 /
2 8 / 11 /
3 7 / 11 /
4 6 / 11 /
5 5 / 10 /
6 3 / 10 /
7 2 / 10 /
8 1 / 10 /
9 1 / 9 /
10 0 / 9 /
11 -1 / 9 /
12 -1 / 9 /
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Makes perfect sense, and would actually be pretty easy to work out...thanks!
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
So where your long column is all blanks, do you just shift over to the short column when you get a long gain result?
 
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Adam McLean
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Re: Pass rush chart
tjans wrote:
So where your long column is all blanks, do you just shift over to the short column when you get a long gain result?


Yes, you just use the highest available column.
 
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Thanks so much for being patient and answering my questions. I'm getting the hang of this...

Another question...using this chart for defender assignments on a pass:
RE vs. Box N
LE vs. Box K
FL#2 vs. Box M
BK#1 vs. Box F
BK#2 vs. Box J
BK#3 vs. Box H

The TE isn't listed...who is supposed to be assigned to guard the TE?
 
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Adam McLean
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Re: Pass rush chart
tjans wrote:
Thanks so much for being patient and answering my questions. I'm getting the hang of this...

Another question...using this chart for defender assignments on a pass:
RE vs. Box N
LE vs. Box K
FL#2 vs. Box M
BK#1 vs. Box F
BK#2 vs. Box J
BK#3 vs. Box H

The TE isn't listed...who is supposed to be assigned to guard the TE?


Something to remember, when this game was produced, the dynamic of the NFL was different ... you didn't have all of these empty backfield formations and wide open offenses that we see today. It was a bit more of a grind. So the display for the offense always assumes that you have at least 1 Back lined up in the backfield (B1 / B2 / B3), although these can be targeted for a pass, and any "skill" player can be put in there.

Anyway, getting a bit long-winded here ... what I'm trying to say is that you can have ONE player at LE and ONE player at RE on any given play, lining them up Tight or Wide. So technically, the Split / Tight boxes is actually 1 box (on each side). Any other receivers, tight ends or running backs would be placed at the FL positions or back positions.

EDIT -- I'd consider using B3 as more of a WR5, especially the way the game is played today. Even in goal line situations you almost never see 3 backs in the game anymore.
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Travis Jansen
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Re: Pass rush chart
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that...I was just sort of taking the rules literally. So, if you use B2/3 as a WR4/5, do you use a variant to the position rules? The rules state that row 2 can only be LB's...which means that your WR5 is covered by the MLB...do you allow DB's to move into that spot in anticipation of a 4/5 WR set?

Or do you let the defense pick the player that will be covering WR's in a 4/5 WR set?

Also, do you have a template for creating your own cards in excel? Something where you enter the data and it creates the cards for you?
 
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Travis Jansen
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Also, I read in the rules that someone put a note on there about blocking backs adding 2 to the block total...is that true? how do you determine who is a blocking back...
 
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Adam McLean
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tjans wrote:
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that...I was just sort of taking the rules literally. So, if you use B2/3 as a WR4/5, do you use a variant to the position rules? The rules state that row 2 can only be LB's...which means that your WR5 is covered by the MLB...do you allow DB's to move into that spot in anticipation of a 4/5 WR set?

Or do you let the defense pick the player that will be covering WR's in a 4/5 WR set?

Also, do you have a template for creating your own cards in excel? Something where you enter the data and it creates the cards for you?


I couldn't find it in my files ... but I believe I re-did the offense/defense displays to accommodate this. Basically, so it would allow the offense to have up to a max 2 Backs or 5 Receivers (instead of 3 backs and 4 Receivers), depending on the formation. And the defensive display also allowed for proper coverage ... but I think I'll have to figure out how that was set up.
 
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Adam McLean
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tjans wrote:
Also, I read in the rules that someone put a note on there about blocking backs adding 2 to the block total...is that true? how do you determine who is a blocking back...


This, I think, was during the play calling ... the offense could announce that 1 (or more) Backs were going to be used in blocking during a passing situation. The restriction being that when the offense revealed their play call, that the blocking back(s) could not be the target of the pass. And if the FAC ended up calling for the blocking back instead of the target to receive the pass, it would automatically be incomplete.

If 1 back was being used, you'd add 2 to the Completion Range, if using 2 Backs, you'd add 4 to the Completion Range, and if it ended up being a Pass Rush, declared Backs blocking value could be added to the OL when determining the advantage.

Each Back should have a blocking value on his player card ... Thematically, that is his ability to block a defender so I don't know how it doesn't affect the completion range, maybe the +2 to completion range when declaring a blocking back simulates the extra split second the QB gets as the back tries to delay a pass rusher by diving towards his legs.

I guess you could house-rule that the blocking values get added to the completion range, but it would make most half-backs worthless at blocking on passing downs as they usually have 0 (or worse) value ... so that's why I think they went with a standard 2.
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Travis Jansen
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Great feedback...

We found a set of rules that detailed some changes to allow for extra WR sets...I'm thinking Green Bay Packer football here...

Whatever you can provide would be great.
 
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Travis Jansen
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oatesatm wrote:
I couldn't find it in my files ... but I believe I re-did the offense/defense displays to accommodate this.


Do you play solitaire? I'm sure if you use Lee Harris' excel flipper/solitaire tool that your changes to the displays would be incompatible with that tool, or perhaps maybe it still works fine.

Curious to how you play your games...I'm currently looking for what works best for me because I don't have anyone local to play H2H with, so solitaire replays and whatnot are where it's at.
 
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Adam McLean
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Yes, I do play solitaire, it is hard to find others to H2H. Sometimes I let the game play both teams (that is, use the solitaire charts for both sides for each team) ... it takes a bit longer but I like to see how it plays out. There are a few judgment calls, but I try to minimize them.

Whenever I play I use a timing chart I came up with to determine how much time elapsed for each play, something along the lines of:

Run -- 45 sec. (1-8) / 40 sec. (9 - 20) / 35 sec. (21 - 32) / etc.



As far as the FACs go, I still use the cards. I downloaded the set by Alex Mittermeyer on Tabletop Sports and then made a few tweaks ... deleted the solitaire line (I use the variant), changed the formatting slightly, switched 1 pass target from a RE to a BK2.

 
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Travis Jansen
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Cool, yeah, I'm still really slow at resolving plays, so the games take a long time. I need to find a way to print the offensive display to make things easier.

Do you print the cards or just use them on the sheets?
 
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Adam McLean
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tjans wrote:
Cool, yeah, I'm still really slow at resolving plays, so the games take a long time. I need to find a way to print the offensive display to make things easier.

Do you print the cards or just use them on the sheets?


I printed them and cut them out .. a bit old fashioned, but I like having everything right there on the table with me. The solitaire vs. solitaire does take a long time, but the game evolves without too much prejudice towards one team or another.

I submitted the Worst Teams set to Tabletop Sports, I like to play them against each other to see who's worse, but sometimes I'll play them against some of the best teams (I'm a big Pats fan so I often use the '07 Patriots).

If you send me a geekmail with your email address, I can export some of my spreadsheets to a PDF and email it to you. This thread has kind of inspired me again, so it's a work in progress at the moment and it's not much yet, but you could use it to come up with your own ideas as well.
 
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Travis Jansen
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Great, I'll send you my email...thanks man, glad to be someone's inspiration. I'm trying to work on what works best for me in terms of solitaire play...seems like Lee Harris' utility works good, but makes some weird play calls...if I ever get the time I need to port my strat utility to SPF...I made one that had a similar system built in, but it tracked stats for you, down, distance, everything right there on a website...pretty cool, I think.

Some day...perhaps I need to get through a SPF game first, but I always run into stuff I don't know how to resolve and have to spend some time reading the directions...

ANyways, you'll have a geekmail soon...
 
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