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Subject: Keyflower rankings rss

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Sebastian Bleasdale
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Today Keyflower beat my previously best rated game (On the Underground) in the BGG rankings. This is not especially exciting news, but I felt it was worth making a post about. For posterity.
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The Dave
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Sebastian Bleasdale wrote:
Today Keyflower beat my previously best rated game (On the Underground) in the BGG rankings. This is not especially exciting news, but I felt it was worth making a post about. For posterity.


It appears you've designed a gem, Sebastian. Keyflower is tearing up the charts. Well done, and congrats!
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tom moughan
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it's not...not exciting!
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John Bandettini
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Sebastian Bleasdale wrote:
Today Keyflower beat my previously best rated game (On the Underground) in the BGG rankings. This is not especially exciting news, but I felt it was worth making a post about. For posterity.


Congratulations, obviously a lot of people (including myself) are enjoying the game.
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Anders Olin
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I succeeded to grab a copy in London the other day. Read through the rules yesterday and now I'm drooling! goo
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Jimmy Okolica
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I personally think it's the best innovative, medium-weight, easy-to-teach, relatively quick, but with lots of good decisions family game of 2012!

Here's hoping you win the 2013 KDJ!


and to think that when I heard it had auctions, I almost canceled my order blush
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David Larkin
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Deservedly so. I think Keyflower is a more interesting game, hope your next will be even better!
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Runcible Spoon
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Congrats!
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Ben
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Butterfly0038 wrote:
I personally think it's the best innovative, medium-weight, easy-to-teach, relatively quick, but with lots of good decisions family game of 2012!

I'd give that to Ginkgopolis. But Keyflower is a close second, for me. Nicely done, Sebastian!
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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It is a very interesting game. There's a few issues I have with it, but it definitely has some interesting concepts that I enjoy.

Not sure I agree with how powerful the Green Meeples are. That and they get put back in the bag after someone bids with them, which means someone lucky enough can draw one and have a huge advantage.

There is also a lot of randomness going in with scoring that can really hand someone the game. Knowing some of the big scoring tiles is neat, but I'll have to play it more to see.

Finally, the game feels too short -- your engine that you're building up is so quick (spring: resources; summer: special powers / better resources; fall: building scoring; winter: final scoring). Feels like having 1 more season in there where you could build up would make the game more fun.

Still, I enjoyed my play yesterday (with 3 players) and I plan to try it again today (with 4 players). Can't wait to see what you come out with next! =)
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Shayne Gray
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Congrats!

Can't wait to get my copy... the wait is tough!
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Richard Dewsbery
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I remain slightly saddened by my inability to get this one to the table a second time That is no comment on the game itself, but between Escape, Snowdonia and the eventual arrival of my KS-backed copy of Glory to Rome, it was always going to be tough to get noticed in November.
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Alan Goodrich
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Stexe wrote:
Not sure I agree with how powerful the Green Meeples are. That and they get put back in the bag after someone bids with them, which means someone lucky enough can draw one and have a huge advantage.


They are powerful in one way - playing one early will dictate that a tile gets little use or perhaps blocks others from bidding on it. At the same time, because they are so limited, using one to bid or take actions with will likely constrain your own future actions. At least in our 2 player games thus far, we tend to collect 2-4 green at most per player. So, while they do provide an advantage, using them can hogtie you as well. If they didn't go into the bag, they would be way too powerful. As it is, getting a singleton out of the bag hardly seems like a coup, as (unless you have a few more waiting for you behind your screen) it will still likely be a one and done kind of action once taken. If you have 0,2, or 5 green, getting that extra one is a whole lot better.

Anyway, congrats Sebastian on an amazing game. The introduction of "suits" into worker placement is a fascinating development. I thought Key Market was great, but Keyflower is giving it a run for its money!
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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cayluster wrote:
Stexe wrote:
Not sure I agree with how powerful the Green Meeples are. That and they get put back in the bag after someone bids with them, which means someone lucky enough can draw one and have a huge advantage.


They are powerful in one way - playing one early will dictate that a tile gets little use or perhaps blocks others from bidding on it. At the same time, because they are so limited, using one to bid or take actions with will likely constrain your own future actions. At least in our 2 player games thus far, we tend to collect 2-4 green at most per player. So, while they do provide an advantage, using them can hogtie you as well. If they didn't go into the bag, they would be way too powerful. As it is, getting a singleton out of the bag hardly seems like a coup, as (unless you have a few more waiting for you behind your screen) it will still likely be a one and done kind of action once taken. If you have 0,2, or 5 green, getting that extra one is a whole lot better.

Anyway, congrats Sebastian on an amazing game. The introduction of "suits" into worker placement is a fascinating development. I thought Key Market was great, but Keyflower is giving it a run for its money!


Well, in our 3 player game we only had one tile come up with Green Meeples on them. I rushed it and managed to get 2 Green Meeples -- the only ones in the game. If I then used those for bidding that round and someone managed to draw it from the bag it would guarantee they would win an auction in the last round. That means they randomly automatically win an auction ... seems kind of flawed to me. In a 2 player game it is kind of a zero sum, but in a multiplayer game it could really give one person a HUGE lead.
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Garry Rice
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Stexe wrote:


Well, in our 3 player game we only had one tile come up with Green Meeples on them. I rushed it and managed to get 2 Green Meeples -- the only ones in the game. If I then used those for bidding that round and someone managed to draw it from the bag it would guarantee they would win an auction in the last round. That means they randomly automatically win an auction ... seems kind of flawed to me. In a 2 player game it is kind of a zero sum, but in a multiplayer game it could really give one person a HUGE lead.


But it doesn't! Someone can always go on the tile that gives green meeples to get green meeples for themselves. Since you can always play on anyone's tile, there's no reason for others not to get green meeples too. In my games, people will often do just this to get green meeples (especially if the owner just upgraded it!).
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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garry_rice wrote:
Stexe wrote:


Well, in our 3 player game we only had one tile come up with Green Meeples on them. I rushed it and managed to get 2 Green Meeples -- the only ones in the game. If I then used those for bidding that round and someone managed to draw it from the bag it would guarantee they would win an auction in the last round. That means they randomly automatically win an auction ... seems kind of flawed to me. In a 2 player game it is kind of a zero sum, but in a multiplayer game it could really give one person a HUGE lead.


But it doesn't! Someone can always go on the tile that gives green meeples to get green meeples for themselves. Since you can always play on anyone's tile, there's no reason for others not to get green meeples too. In my games, people will often do just this to get green meeples (especially if the owner just upgraded it!).


Not if they go there with a Green Meeple themselves to block others. It isn't so bad having them in the game as long as there are ways for other people to get them -- which is pretty variable. Just I really think the rule where they go back into the bag is silly. It can give one person who draws Meeples from the bag a huge advantage very randomly.

I wonder if they designed the game around Green Meeples being wild if the game would have been even better.
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Ralph H. Anderson
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Stefan,

After several plays I have found Green keyples are fine.

I once had all 20 green keyples in a 2 player game, scored the 2 points per green keyple tile and barely won by a few points. ( I scored 19 of them and used one to bid for the green keyple tile). However, getting that many of them meant I spent almost all my actions and most of my other color meeples getting them. That meant I gave up a lot of flexibility and I wasn't sure I was going to win. The time and keyples it takes to gain green keyples can also cost you in other ways.

If you don't want them in the bag, don't use them for bidding! I find they are great to use on your own home tiles!

And, as others have said, it is difficult for someone to totally monopolize the green keyple tile(s). It is a strategy and a good one, but could leave other valuable options open to the other players.
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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DragonCat wrote:
Stefan,

After several plays I have found Green keyples are fine.

I once had all 20 green keyples in a 2 player game, scored the 2 points per green keyple tile and barely won by a few points. ( I scored 19 of them and used one to bid for the green keyple tile). However, getting that many of them meant I spent almost all my actions and most of my other color meeples getting them. That meant I gave up a lot of flexibility and I wasn't sure I was going to win. The time and keyples it takes to gain green keyples can also cost you in other ways.

If you don't want them in the bag, don't use them for bidding! I find they are great to use on your own home tiles!

And, as others have said, it is difficult for someone to totally monopolize the green keyple tile(s). It is a strategy and a good one, but could leave other valuable options open to the other players.


The thing isn't about getting a lot -- it is about getting a few and preventing others from getting them. If you only ever get 2 or 3 Green Meeples the entire game, but prevent your opponent from getting them, then you've succeeded. I managed to get the only 2 Green Meeples in my first 3 player game and managed to lock down the entire last auction phase. Ended up with a score of 78~ VP.

Also, I don't think the arguement that "if you don't want Green Meeples in the back means you just don't use them for bidding" -- it seems like a design flaw. Like, what reason is there for having them go back into the bag other than increase variance and luck while reducing skill and meaningful choice? There might be some reason why (which is why I posted in this thread hoping to get the designer to discuss it), but yeah.
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Graham Charlton
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Absolutely fantastic game and thoroughly deserving of moving up the rankings. Hopefully the reprint will get it to even more people.

I've rated it a 9, and so far I've only rated two other 2012 games a 9 (Marvel Legendary and Virgin Queen). Probably better than both of those, so my game of the year. I've even bought a second copy to give to my parents for Christmas.
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David Larkin
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RDewsbery wrote:
I remain slightly saddened by my inability to get this one to the table a second time That is no comment on the game itself, but between Escape, Snowdonia and the eventual arrival of my KS-backed copy of Glory to Rome, it was always going to be tough to get noticed in November.


Played Keyflower last night, haven't managed to get Snowdonia to the table yet , and my copy of Tzolkin got played without me while I was playing Keyflower
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Congratulations, Sebastian! We're really enjoying Keyflower.

Stexe wrote:
There might be some reason why (which is why I posted in this thread hoping to get the designer to discuss it), but yeah.


This is not the thread to discuss this topic. Just make a new thread.
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Garry Rice
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Stexe wrote:

The thing isn't about getting a lot -- it is about getting a few and preventing others from getting them. If you only ever get 2 or 3 Green Meeples the entire game, but prevent your opponent from getting them, then you've succeeded. I managed to get the only 2 Green Meeples in my first 3 player game and managed to lock down the entire last auction phase. Ended up with a score of 78~ VP.

Also, I don't think the arguement that "if you don't want Green Meeples in the back means you just don't use them for bidding" -- it seems like a design flaw. Like, what reason is there for having them go back into the bag other than increase variance and luck while reducing skill and meaningful choice? There might be some reason why (which is why I posted in this thread hoping to get the designer to discuss it), but yeah.


The only way you could have locked down your green meeple tile would have been to play a green meeple on it or to play 3 of your own meeples on it before anyone else had a chance to place their workers on it...which means in your game you would have only had 1 green meeple to lock other out with, or everyone else would have at least had one turn to lock OUT your green meeple from tiles they wanted, and then a second turn to lock out your second green meeple from any other tile. Don't know how many players were in this game, but 2 green meeples should not dominate the game.
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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garry_rice wrote:
Stexe wrote:

The thing isn't about getting a lot -- it is about getting a few and preventing others from getting them. If you only ever get 2 or 3 Green Meeples the entire game, but prevent your opponent from getting them, then you've succeeded. I managed to get the only 2 Green Meeples in my first 3 player game and managed to lock down the entire last auction phase. Ended up with a score of 78~ VP.

Also, I don't think the arguement that "if you don't want Green Meeples in the back means you just don't use them for bidding" -- it seems like a design flaw. Like, what reason is there for having them go back into the bag other than increase variance and luck while reducing skill and meaningful choice? There might be some reason why (which is why I posted in this thread hoping to get the designer to discuss it), but yeah.


The only way you could have locked down your green meeple tile would have been to play a green meeple on it or to play 3 of your own meeples on it before anyone else had a chance to place their workers on it...which means in your game you would have only had 1 green meeple to lock other out with, or everyone else would have at least had one turn to lock OUT your green meeple from tiles they wanted, and then a second turn to lock out your second green meeple from any other tile. Don't know how many players were in this game, but 2 green meeples should not dominate the game.


We only had 1 tile come up with the ability to get Green Meeples and it was in Fall. I rushed it with 2 Meeples that I knew no one else had. Even still, I wish there was a random Meeple color instead of Green. Locking someone out of a bid seems silly to me in a game all about bidding, especially building up to that final big scoring tile.
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Bruce Murphy
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I'm unaware of any singular big scoring tile. Even in games with few green meeples, nothing seemed terribly unbalanced.

B>
 
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Guillaume HALLIER
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Last game I played, I got something like 7 or 9 Green meeples, and the scoring tile which gives 2 points per green meeple, and I didn't win the game because someone else scored more point swith the skills tiles...
Imho, green meeples aren't imba, and all is about interaction and how you try to neutralize your opponents in their strategy without stopping to develop your own strategy.
Keyflower is really a great game for me.
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