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Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Hanging gardens vs St Peters Basilica rss

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Jordi U
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Most of the threads in this forum talk about combining the effects of this two wonders. But what if Hanging Gardens and St Peters Basilica are in the card row at the same time at start of age I? Which one would you take.

I thought that Hanging Gardens was a great investment, but now I'm wondering if it's better to let it go and get St Peter's Basilica which is a much better long term investment.

What are your thoughts?
 
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Einmal ist keinmal
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All else being equal, a wonder (and probably all techs too) that appears earlier rather than later in its age is better. So, with the information given, I would go with St. Peter's Basilica.
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Andrew E
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The Basilica is flat-out better. It costs 2 extra resources and 1 less CA, and nicely allows you to make an age 1 happiness tech, or no happiness tech, in a pinch, work for the whole game. Plus it's an extra culture per turn, which I've learned not to discount out of hand.
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Everett Scheer
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St Peter's is better in the long run. It allows minimal effort to provide the happiness you need in the game. It also enables theaters to provide the happiness for your Civ. The action saved is probably worth the extra 2 rock (as per action cards) at that point in the game, and the added culture is a slight benifit.

Hanging gardens is also a good wonder but has only one advantage over SPB: the Happiness is front loaded (ie you get it rigth away; no need for other infrustructure).

The most telling reason to take St. Pete's is to think about "ravages of time". If that event came up and you had both HG and SPB, which would you flip?
 
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Simon Kamber
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Elgar wrote:
Hanging gardens is also a good wonder but has only one advantage over SPB: the Happiness is front loaded (ie you get it rigth away; no need for other infrustructure).


It has another, more important, advantage: It pops earlier.

That advantage is nullified if they appear together on the track, and so you would usually go for the Basilica in that case.
 
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Petri Savola
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Dulkal wrote:
Elgar wrote:
Hanging gardens is also a good wonder but has only one advantage over SPB: the Happiness is front loaded (ie you get it rigth away; no need for other infrustructure).


It has another, more important, advantage: It pops earlier.

That advantage is nullified if they appear together on the track, and so you would usually go for the Basilica in that case.

Hanging Gardens being age A wonder is also a disadvantage, because often you'd like to build it just after age II starts and happiness problems kick in. Not the turn before.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Petri wrote:
Hanging Gardens being age A wonder is also a disadvantage, because often you'd like to build it just after age II starts and happiness problems kick in. Not the turn before.


Hmm. Never thought of it that way.
 
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Harry White
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I recently had both HG and StPB when the Ravages of Time came up. It was an easy choice to flip the HG.

The doubled happy faces later in the game is much more powerful than the +2 happy faces on the HG. I had already put myself in position to build a few operas to make up the difference.
 
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D K
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I would want to get SPB built asap. That way I can get another Age 1 wonder to protect it. It always sucks to have to flip it due to ravages of time.

Plus SPB makes theaters worth building instead of temples. 1 worker for 2 culture and 2 happy faces, and can easily upgrade to movies later.
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Jorge
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AndrewE wrote:
The Basilica is flat-out better. It costs 2 extra resources and 1 less CA...

I would argue it costs the same CAs as the Hanging Gardens. Sure, you need 2 CAs to complete the wonder, but you need to find a happy face from somewhere! So, you need an extra CA to build a Temple/Drama, except if the free Temple event shows up, but you can't count on it.

I would thus go with Hanging Gardens because: (1) is cheaper, in terms of resources; (2) it shows up much earlier, though it might not show up at all; (3) it doesn't need a worker to generate a happy face. The first two happy faces are the most important, in my opinion, as you can sustain 7 extra workers without having any discontent worker (barring losing yellow tokens at the end of an age). After that you need one happy face for every two workers.

On the contrary, St. Peter's Basilica: (1) can provide more happy faces in the long term, which might make a difference if Impact on Happiness shows up; (2) may be built in Age II, as well, where you need it most, as you'd better spend rocks on infrastructure during Age I, instead of happy faces. You can't do that with the Hanging Gardens.
 
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David Pearlman
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Hanging Gardens is cheaper, and is as or more effective at producing happy faces for all numbers except 6. The Gardens are ahead for the first 2 happy faces, 0 workers to 1. It's tied from 3 to 5 happy faces, at 1 worker. 6 happy faces the Basilica can do with only 1 worker, while the Gardens require 2. 7 and 8 are tied again at 2 workers.

So I'd say Hanging Gardens are better for sure. There's a short window when the Basilica is better, but the ability to provide happy faces with no workers in the early game is much more valuable. And on top of that the Gardens are cheaper. The only problem is that the Gardens may come a little bit too early, before you even need two happy faces. If development of religion comes up, you'd be better off investing somewhere else, like science production or the pyramids. But you don't get to see which events hit before deciding to take the Gardens or not.

I will sometimes take the Gardens and just let it sit there for a long while before completing it.
 
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Steve Bachman
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digger_was_taken wrote:
Hanging Gardens is cheaper, and is as or more effective at producing happy faces for all numbers except 6. The Gardens are ahead for the first 2 happy faces, 0 workers to 1. It's tied from 3 to 5 happy faces, at 1 worker. 6 happy faces the Basilica can do with only 1 worker, while the Gardens require 2. 7 and 8 are tied again at 2 workers.

That's a rather skewed analysis as it appears you are using temples to get your happy faces, meaning your 2 workers are only giving you +3 Culture with the Gardens compared to up to +7 Culture with the Basilica (Movies + Org. Rel.), or even +14 Culture with Elvis (two Movies).

The Basilica, combined with Historic Territory I, can provide 2 happy faces without a worker same as the Gardens. Historic Territory II would provide 4 happy faces without a worker, same as the Gardens. Theocracy becomes more viable with the Basilica due to the doubling of happy faces, and the Great Wall and Eiffel Tower are also more appealing because of it.

The Basilica provides flexibility that the Gardens do not. You can focus on culture-generating Wonders or Theaters for happiness rather than happiness-focused Temples. The Gardens are great, but the Basilica is better due to the culture increase and the flexibility going forward.
 
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