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Subject: Non-Home Capitals rss

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Zack S.
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Since the Protestants can have a capital that's not a home space, and potentially not even a key, what "gotchas" are there? I'll try to list the ones I can think of:

1) You can't build troops, though you still get a free regular each winter and may receive mercenaries there.
2) You can't place leaders there during Spring Deployment, though they can return there in the winter*.
3) Ransomed leaders CAN be placed in the non-home capital.
4) Your leaders there are at greater risk of assassination.
5) You cannot trace LOC from a non-home capital. This could mean that the Protestants have no fortified home spaces to trace from in France, even though they have a large army in their capital.

*) The land units returning home passage refers to "home capital" a lot. I think that's just leftover wording to make sure your troops only return to your own capital rather than meaning "home-space capital", but a verification from Ed would be good for completeness.
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Kristian Thy
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zackss wrote:
2) You can't place leaders there during Spring Deployment, though they can return there in the winter*.

*) The land units returning home passage refers to "home capital" a lot. I think that's just leftover wording to make sure your troops only return to your own capital rather than meaning "home-space capital", but a verification from Ed would be good for completeness.


23.6 says that "[the] space now serves as a capital for army leaders and units of that area during the Spring Deployment and Winter Phases and if units are displaced (12.5)" which I would liberally interpret as allowing placement of leaders in a non-home capital in Step 4 of the Spring Deployment procedure. I think it's just the wording that needs a bit of tightening.
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Zack S.
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turbothy wrote:
23.6 says that "[the] space now serves as a capital for army leaders and units of that area during the Spring Deployment and Winter Phases and if units are displaced (12.5)" which I would liberally interpret as allowing placement of leaders in a non-home capital in Step 4 of the Spring Deployment procedure. I think it's just the wording that needs a bit of tightening.

Yeah, that's possible, though that could just be interpreted as referring to the ability to spring deploy. The placement of new leaders doesn't refer to capitals at all, though it certainly does seem a little strange that they can return there from ransom but not walk in when they're perfectly free.
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Steven
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zackss wrote:
turbothy wrote:
23.6 says that "[the] space now serves as a capital for army leaders and units of that area during the Spring Deployment and Winter Phases and if units are displaced (12.5)" which I would liberally interpret as allowing placement of leaders in a non-home capital in Step 4 of the Spring Deployment procedure. I think it's just the wording that needs a bit of tightening.
Yeah, that's possible, though that could just be interpreted as referring to the ability to spring deploy. The placement of new leaders doesn't refer to capitals at all, though it certainly does seem a little strange that they can return there from ransom but not walk in when they're perfectly free.


I disagree. In the section Kristian quoted the use of the word phases is key. This makes it pretty clear that it refers to the entire Spring Deployment phase, along with Winter phase. If it stated Spring Deployment and Winter phase, then I could see why there could be some confusion.

On the other hand, the wording does need to be clarified, as you pointed out, because Step 4 of the SD phase refers only to a fortified home space under friendly control for land leader placement. I think Kristian's interpertation is right in the end. Otherwise the Protestants would be handicapped in their placement of leaders during this phase!
 
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Zack S.
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
zackss wrote:
turbothy wrote:
23.6 says that "[the] space now serves as a capital for army leaders and units of that area during the Spring Deployment and Winter Phases and if units are displaced (12.5)" which I would liberally interpret as allowing placement of leaders in a non-home capital in Step 4 of the Spring Deployment procedure. I think it's just the wording that needs a bit of tightening.
Yeah, that's possible, though that could just be interpreted as referring to the ability to spring deploy. The placement of new leaders doesn't refer to capitals at all, though it certainly does seem a little strange that they can return there from ransom but not walk in when they're perfectly free.

I disagree. In the section Kristian quoted the use of the word phases is key. This makes it pretty clear that it refers to the entire Spring Deployment phase, along with Winter phase. If it stated Spring Deployment and Winter phase, then I could see why there could be some confusion.

On the other hand, the wording does need to be clarified, as you pointed out, because Step 4 of the SD phase refers only to a fortified home space under friendly control for land leader placement. I think Kristian's interpertation is right in the end. Otherwise the Protestants would be handicapped in their placement of leaders during this phase!

My meaning was that the wording's purpose could be simply for spring deployment. It's their capital for the phase, but by RAW that would be no more important in the "place arriving leaders" portion of the phase than the "choose home card" part, because neither talks about capitals. If there were nothing in the spring phase that relied on capitals, the line in 23.6 would certainly indicate some uncertainty about the intention, but there is a straight reading that doesn't have any loose ends.

I too think they should be able to place there, just because it makes more sense and is easier to remember, but I just don't see anything in the rules that allows it, even though the capital was usually the homiest of home keys. I'm playing the Protestants now, and absent errata by Ed I don't feel like I'd have much ground to stand on.
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Ed Beach
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I think the correct way to rule on this one is to disallow placement of Protestant capitals in a space that is not a Protestant home space. Not sure that helps your current game dilemna though!
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Zack S.
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laugh I do wonder how I'm able to recruit free regulars in Paris but can't scrape together a few mercenaries afterward.

What would happen with Paris is Worth a Mass though?
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Steven
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Thank you for posting your thoughts on the matter Ed. It does make sense and solves that rules problem, but I agree with Zack. Given that Paris is Worth a Mass seems like such an important card, what would happen if the Protestant capital is moved there? Should it be treated like a home space in this special case?

Edit: This could also happen if the Dutch place their capital in a split yellow/orange space. If Union of Arras is played as an event their capital may now be in a non-home fortified space!
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Steven
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I guess what I am trying to argue is that a Protestant Capital should be treated as a home space, but I agree that it should not be placed via rebellion in a non-home space.

This way if the Huguenot move their capital to Paris with "Paris is Worth A Mass" they can build troops and it allows the Dutch to have a functioning capital in an orange/yellow space after a possible Union of Arras play.
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Greg Forster
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Isn't there a better solution, Ed? Seems unthematic to say Protestants can't have their capitol in Paris. Wasn't that the point?

I'd say since you have to devise a rules solution for Paris Is Worth A Mass anyway, why not just apply that solution across the board and permit the Protestant capitol wherever the Protestant has the wherewithal to get it!
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Ed Beach
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You guys have some valid points. Let me think it over a bit more and jump back in here in a bit.
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Steven
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Have you made a decision on this issue Ed?

I only ask, because I am playing as the Prots in a game.
 
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Ed Beach
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I think my preferred solution is to:

a) not allow placement of capitals via rebellion in a space that is not a Protestant home space

but also to add:

b) if the Huguenot capital moves to Paris from the Paris is Worth a Mass event, Paris becomes a split French/Huguenot home space for the rest of the game.

Assuming that ruling holds up to scrutiny, I'll include it in the errata/FAQ update I was planning for the next few weeks.
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Zack S.
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Ed Beach wrote:
I think my preferred solution is to:

a) not allow placement of capitals via rebellion in a space that is not a Protestant home space

but also to add:

b) if the Huguenot capital moves to Paris from the Paris is Worth a Mass event, Paris becomes a split French/Huguenot home space for the rest of the game.

Assuming that ruling holds up to scrutiny, I'll include it in the errata/FAQ update I was planning for the next few weeks.

You may want to include some FAQ on what happens to a capital at Brussels, Mons, or Dunkirk when the Union of Arras occurs. While we've teased out the eccentricities of non-home capitals here it'd probably be better for ease of play if that situation never occurs.
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Zack S.
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And what happens with Paris is Worth a Mass if the Huguenot capital is off-board or on the turn track? Does it still move the capital? If not, Paris should probably become split even if it can't immediately become the capital so that it can be placed later.
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Ed Beach
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With Paris is Worth a Mass, the Huguenot capital should be moved to Paris immediately -- even if it is on the Turn Track when the event is played.
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Steven
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Not to beat a dead horse Ed, but what about the example of Brussels, Mons, or Dunkirk (that Zack brought up)? What happens to a Dutch capital in one of these spaces if Union of Arras is played later?
 
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Ed Beach
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I could see a good argument to saying the capital is removed or displaced if that occurs. But that'd make for a nice, hefty entry for the FAQ for the card! However historically that probably is the correction interpretation.
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Steven
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A hefty FAQ indeed, but necessary. Thank you taking the time to answer our numerous questions.
 
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