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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Whirlwind / Counterattack rss

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Sir Bryond
Germany
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Hi all!

Two questions:

Whirlwind: How do you spend surges? Only for the initial attack or for every foe newly?

Counterattack: If one uses the skill, who attacks first? Monster or hero?

Well, and one question regarding the hero ability of NAROK: does 'attack' mean his attacks per turn only or every attack, such as done by Counterattack?

Thanks and regards!
 
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Nick Karasek
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Regarding Whirlwind the surges are 'spent' once and are used for all the foes. So say you do +2 dmg with your surge each foe will take +2 dmg. Just think of it as a single attack targeting all adjacent monsters.

The counterattack is definitely performed after the monster attacks, by definition it is an attack in response to another attack.

I am not sure about Narok's ability as I don't recall what it is but I would imagine that it would count for all attacks including counterattack.

 
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Samuel Aneiros
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Whirlwind: I read the wording as meaning you spend the surges as you wish on each enemy, as if you had rolled the exact same attack dice for each monster separately.

Counterattack: you resolve the monster attack first, then the counterattack.

Not sure about Narok, but the way I read Counterattack means there's no difference between a regular, in-turn attack, and the attack that counterattack triggers.
 
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Simon Auger
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With Whirlwind you spend an action and take 1 point of fatigue. You then roll the dice for the attack and each monster adjacent to you then rolls defence dice individually. The one attack result is used for each monster.

For Counter Attack the monster carries out its attack first and then the hero gets an opportunity to use Counter Attack.

Nanok's ability applies to each attack that he makes regardless of whether its as a result of taking an attack action or using a skill such as Counter Attack.

Hope this helps.
 
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Sir Bryond
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Well, OK, Counterattack is clear now, I just wasn't sure if 'resolved' on the card means 'declared' or 'done'. ;-)

But on Whirlwind, here is an example:

2 foes around me, I select one for the initial attack and roll 4 DMG and 2 surges. The monster rolls its defend dice, got a 2 while having 2 HPs left and is defeated without having me to spend any surges in DMG, but I COULD use them to restore endurance. If this was the end of the story I would use them for endurance, but since I don't know what defence result monster 2 will roll, I'd HAVE to put the surges in for additional damage during my initional attack roll, just to be on the sure side?
Or could I just save them and decide what to do with them after monster 2 rolled?
 
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Samuel Aneiros
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After re-reading the rules (pages 11-13), I've changed my mind. The sequence would be like this;

1.- You declare your use of Whirlwind.
2.- You roll your attack, but do NOT decide on the surges yet.
3.- The Overlord rolls all targets' defense rolls separately.
4.- Then you decide an effect for each of your surges, and those are applied to each target separately.

So you can't choose a different set of surge effects for each target, but at least you can see all targets' defense before deciding.

Hope that helps.

(edited twice because my english sucks)
 
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Erik Burigo
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With the other two questions resolved I try to shed some more light on Whirlwind.

During every attack (from the base attack to those triggered by abilities or items):
* Attack dice and defense dice are rolled simultaneously.
* Then attacker and defender may use abilities that allow re-rolls.
* If the attack die (the blue one) shows an X the attack is a miss, and we don't proceed (surges cannot be expended in any way).
* If there is not enough range, the attack is miss, but we can expend surges.
* Attacker decides how he is expending surges (some surges may add range and thus making the attack land correctly).
* Damage is taken after having determined all surge usages (which, for example, may add wounds, pierce, blast, etc.)

This means that you first see the defense dice result and then decide how to spend surges.

In the Whirlwind case (and, by the way, in case of Fire Breath or blast attacks), there is one attacker and many defenders, but the attack sequence remains the same.

* Attacker rolls his attack dice and each defender roll his defense dice.
* Re-rolls (if applicable)
* X => utterly miss, no surge may be expended.
* Range check against each defender. This implies that some targets can be hit and others missed.
* Attacker decides how he is expending surges. Surge effects are applied to the attack, that is: to every target. If you decide to expend a surge to recover 1 fatigue you get only 1 fatigue back (not 1 for each target). If you decide to expend a surge to add a wound, the attack deals 1 more wound (that each target may soaked differently according to the shields he rolled).

Example. Whirlwind against an adjacent Ice Wyrm (2 gray dice) and 2 adjacent Deep Elves (stealthy, 1 brown die).
You roll 3 hearts, 2 surges and range 2.
Your surge options are +1 range, +1 wounds, pierce 2 and, of course, the omnipresent recover 1 fatigue.
The Ice Wyrm rolls 4 shields.
One Deep Elf rolls 0 shields.
The other Deep Elf rolls 1 shield.

The attack is not an X, so you're going to hit something. However elves are Stealthy, meaning that you need at least range 3 to hit (also in melee).

Here are some examples of how you can expend surges.
+1 Range and Pierce 2. You hit the elves too and inflict 3 damage pierce 2. Net damage is Ice Wyrm (1), Deep Elves (3 and 3).
+1 Wound and Pierce 2. You miss the elves and inflict 4 damage pierce 2. Net damage is Ice Wyrm (2), Deep Elves (0 and 0).
+1 Range and +1 Wound. You hit the elves and inflict 4 damage. Net damage is Ice Wyrm (0), Deep Elves (4 and 3).
+1 Range and Recover 1 fatigue. You hit elves and inflict 3 damage. Net damage is Ice Wyrm (0), Deep Elves (3 and 2).
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Rafal Areinu
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Erik pretty much summed up everything. Though there are some effects that add Blast effect after spending a surge, which complicates things. Because you're adding blast during "spend surges" move you couldn't have seen the other defense die rolls. In our group we throw additional defense rolls as soon as hero decides to use surge for added blast, then he is free to spend other surges after seeing all the results.
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Blueskin noname
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So what's happening if i whirlwind with the 'dawn blade' relic and spend a surge to do 1 more attack, do I win 1 attack for each monster next to me ?

Sorry for my bad english i'm not english native.
 
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Erik Burigo
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Don't worry about your English: I'm horrible at it too.

You don't "spawn" additional attacks. And a surge effect is not multiplied for the number of possible target. If it was so, you'd be able to recover more than 1 fatigue with a Whirlwind or Blast attack, but is not so.

The Dawnblade surge ability lets you extend the attack onto an adjacent monster (it provides an additional target); so it doesn't interact well with Whirlwind (which already makes you perform an attack that affects all adjacent monsters). A figure is either affected or not affected by an attack: having two game effects that tell you a figure is an additional target for an attack doesn't make it be affected twice.

Remember: there is only one attack. Not one attack for each target, but the same attack against each target. Neither Whirlwind nor the Dawnblade surge effect let you perform additional attacks.
 
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Blueskin noname
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Thanks for the fast answer ! I thought since the fatigue for 1 surge was not on thé weapon and second attack is, it would work like pierce and +hearts but that's ok it's fine enough as it is
 
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