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Subject: Wild Vulch and Comp. et. al. rss

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Allen Michaels
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Another session...more questions!!!

Negotiate vs. Attack. The Negotiating player is entitled to (4) compensation. However, the winner played Wild Vulch. Both Comp and Wild Vulch happen in the Resolution phase. I saw that it seemed to be a 'tie', and went with the Offense going first. Is that correct?

Other issues:
We ruled that Fido and Vulch couldn't grab reward discards, but it appears that they can.

Played with Anti-Matter. The wording is really bad on the card, and we couldn't figure it out until I read the forums.

Thanks.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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al_fredo wrote:
Negotiate vs. Attack. The Negotiating player is entitled to (4) compensation. However, the winner played Wild Vulch. Both Comp and Wild Vulch happen in the Resolution phase. I saw that it seemed to be a 'tie', and went with the Offense going first. Is that correct?

This one may not have a simple answer. First off, if I were the winner, in most cases I would wait until after compensation was taken from me and then play my Wild Vulch.

Anyway, here's how I think the timing probably works:

• If the flare is played before compensation is collected, it resolves before compensation is collected.

• If the flare is played after compensation is collected, it resolves after compensation is collected.

• If everyone is aware of the flare and the main players are having a standoff where each wants the other to go first, this reveals a hole in the rules. Possible ways to resolve:

(a) Bend the timing rule somewhat and force the offense to go first (or to forego his action if it is optional). There is no official support for claiming that the timing rule has authority to force somebody to act, but it's a possible extension if everyone agrees.

(b) Force compensation to occur first, since it is a mandatory action and the flare is optional. (Unless of course the flareholder wants to go first and can do so within the timing rule.)

Someday we're going to have to tackle this whole issue (which is actually larger than your question) and come up with an elegant solution.

al_fredo wrote:
We ruled that Fido and Vulch couldn't grab reward discards, but it appears that they can.

That's how one of the playtesters told us his group playtested it a couple years ago. (Best evidence we have.)

al_fredo wrote:
Played with Anti-Matter. The wording is really bad on the card, and we couldn't figure it out until I read the forums.

Which part? If the problem was something other than "subtract from card" when they should have said "subtract from total," I'd love to hear about it so I can update the Cosmodex as needed.
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Jefferson Krogh
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I agree with Bill here. The holder of the Wild Vulch should be able to choose, and should generally wait until after compensation is taken. But that risks losing the Wild Vulch as compensation, doesn't it? So I can see where the standstill might come into play.

One thing that isn't allowed, no matter what: the offense deciding to play the Wild Vulch because he sees it getting drawn out of his hand as compensation. At that point, sorry, it's just too late.

I also agree that you used the right approach in resolving the conflict. The Timing Rule is a great fallback for those cases when you just can't sort out the timing in the heat of the moment.
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Allen Michaels
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Yes...the Wild Vulch holder could have waited, but he played it immediately, before comp (and probably rightly, so he didn't lose it) so they looked at me and said "Who goes first?". Since I didn't want it to be a "Who has quicker reflexes?" thing (aka, who said "COMP!" or "Flare!" first)...and since Comp is a more deliberate procedure than playing a flare...I went to the timing rule. The Negotiating player took his comp (missed the flare), and the Wild Vulch was played.

Again...if it was in the best interest of the WV holder to wait until after comp...no issues there. Either things can happen before comp, or they can't...so if they can and the comp taker wants it first, i say go with offense.

As for Anti-matter.... the actual card says:
Furthermore, when this power is used, your ships as well as any offensive and defensive allies' ships are subtracted from the appropriate side's card. Your opponent's total is otherwise figured normally, however.

So, we were confused as we were reading it - "Ok, AM is a main player. ANY offensive and defensive allies are subtracted from the appropriate side. OK, So Offensive allies are subtracted from the offense card, and defensive allies are subtracted from the defense card. Wait, but why does it then say the opponent total figured normally - cause that isn't normal"
That's what we were struggling with.

Thanks.


 
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Sean Franco
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That just means that the opponent's ships are added rather than subtracted. It goes like this:

Antimatter's card - Antimatter's ships - Antimatter's allies' ships = Total

Opponent's card + Opponent's ships - Opponent's allies' ships = total
 
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Just a Bill
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al_fredo wrote:
Wait, but why does it then say the opponent total figured normally - cause that isn't normal"

When it says "is otherwise figured normally," it means everything other than the requirement to subtract allies. What they're trying to say is, if the opponent is Mirror or is Graviton or has a kicker or plays reinforcements or whatever, all of those effects still happen normally.
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Mi Myma
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There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
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Bill Martinson wrote:
This one may not have a simple answer. First off, if I were the winner, in most cases I would wait until after compensation was taken from me and then play my Wild Vulch.

Of course, you may not have the Wild Vulch anymore after compensation is taken. But yes, I agree with you that the player can choose to play (and resolve) the card either before or after compensation.

Quote:
• If everyone is aware of the flare and the main players are having a standoff where each wants the other to go first, this reveals a hole in the rules.

This is where I disagree. I have always seen these standoff situations as being the exact kind of things you use the Timing Rule for.

Offense has a choice of doing X or not doing X.
Defense has a choice of doing Y or not doing Y.
Offense decides first, and implements his decision (or not).
Then defense decides and implements his decision (or not).
Then offense may be able to change his mind depending on the nature of X.
Then defense may be able to change his mind depending on the nature of Y.
IIRC, all actions like this are one-way only. If a player doesn't play a card (such as the Wild Vulch) in one instant, he can still change his mind and decide to play it in a later instant. But once the card is played, it's played and must be resolved. Most (all) power use declarations are also one-way. If Loser doesn't call upset at one particular instant, he can still call upset. But once he calls upset, he can't take it back. This means the standoff must end.

However, this particular case isn't quite the same. The winner has a choice of to play Wild Vulch or not. But the negotiator does not have a choice of whether to collect compensation. The winner has the choice to play the card before compensation, or after if he still has the card. If he chooses not to play the card before compensation, the other player has no ability to "wait" for him to "go first", regardless of who is offense or defense. There is no standoff. No timing conflict.
 
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