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Subject: Dorn character rebalance for experienced Hero players rss

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In the first games of Dorn, the DK can easily win because noob Heroes make lots of mistakes. However, as soon as the Hero players learn how to play properly, the DK has few chances of winning. And one of the reasons to be this way is because, even though most Dorn characters are balanced, a few of them are so uberly broken that the DK has no chance against them.

After playing many games of Dorn and Dorn: Koschei's Eternal Return, these are some homerule fixes that we're trying to include to the following characters. I'm curious about if you have spotted these problems and/or if you have found a better solution for them.

Bogdan, Mannand, Ragnar, Riel, Eleanor, Kaerdrak, Guelin
These seem to be OK. We haven't really tested Mannand and Bogdan, because nobody wants to play with them as statistically they are so inferior to the overpowered Heroes. We hope this changes soon.

Almanor
Problem: Specific Icestorm exploit
Almanor can spam Icestorms. At level 2 is not a big issue, because that Spell costs blood and Almanor is always short on blood. But at the third level, he can cast Icestorm for free, thus paralyzing most Monsters. Paralyzed monsters won't let other monsters engage with Almanor, becoming unbeatable, and letting the rest of the Heroes wipe the paralyzed monsters very easily.
Solution: Almanor cannot cast the "Icestorm" two turns in a row.

Choros (see new version below)
Problem: Slightly overpowered warrior.
Thanks to its mass-destruction axe sweep, Choros can easily bring down four monsters with only two attacks. He has also lots of life, and his only disadvantage is to be slower (Movement 5), but only in level 1. Choros is the favourite of many gamers and Heroes win more often when they have him in the party.

Solution: Heroes adjacent to Choros can be damaged by the Axe sweep (and they cannot parry it). Choros has Movement 5 in all his three levels.

I think is good to have a powerful berserker dwarf character, and limiting the axe sweep would be disappointing. Instead, making it a dangerous move for the other Heroes means that Choros will be usually isolated and more vulnerable if he abuses this ability. Being slower than the rest of the Heroes, he will slow a bit the rest of the party. Choros is still strong, but has some interesting downsides to balance his extra strength.



Vargen
Problem: Slightly overpowered regeneration.
Vargen can heal 1 Blood Drop each time he destroys a monster. When he levels up, he is able to gain blood drops eating more types of monsters. The problem is that all these "eating monster abilities" do stack, allowing Vargen to gain up to 3 blood each turn, if he manages to destroy a monster of each three types. These are the best healing abilities in all the game, as they don't require you to sacrifice movement or attack, allowing you to heal while you are destroying monsters. Level 2 Vargen is still bearable, but level 3 Vargen becomes unstoppable.

Solution: Vargen can only "eat" one monster each turn. The higher his level, the more omnivore he becomes, but he cannot gain more than one blood per turn. In exchange for this, Vargen has movement 7 in all his three levels (as in the first edition of Dorn)

Initially we played this way because we had the first edition of Dorn and we took the healing rule wrong and Vargen felt much more balanced than with the official rule right.

Gor
Problem: Uberly broken level 1 abilities
Gor is so powerful at level 1 that Heroes don't need to level him up. He can heal 1 blood to another Hero while moving at his full capacity (while other healing abilities of the Heroes require the Hero to stay still, thus losing time). So he can focus on Healing, and when the fight gets nasty, he can kill any Major Monster with his Exorcism (yes, a level 1 ability). He can then heal himself to recover the blood spent on the Exorcism, adding insult to the injury and becoming the most broken level 1 character.

Solution: rework the character completely: exchange the level 1 Exorcism with the level 2 Mace. If Gor uses his level 1 or level 2 Healings, he cannot move in the same turn.

This way, Gor will be similar to Kaerdrak in level 1. Both of them can make 1 damage in hand to hand. Kaerdrak has one more blood drop, but Gor's attack cannot be parried by ghosts or demons (it's a magic attack). Both of them can heal if they don't move (Kaerdrak can both attack and heal and Gor can only heal, but Gor can heal other Heroes and Kaerdrak can only heal himself). That sounds balanced to me.

Gor's healing is still very powerful, but wastes a very important resource: time. So, we have given him an incentive to forget about healing and use his mace and kill monsters and level up and learn new spells and not be forever stuck in a uberly powerful level 1.

Strix
Problem: Uberly broken overall
As Gor was the broken character in basic Dorn, Strix is the broken character in the expansion. He's not only immortal (respawns at the village everytime he's killed), he also is one of the top fighters. He can both have the cake and eat it.

Solution: Strix has 4 Life in all his three levels. On the third level, he has only one attack.

Those changes are made so that Strix remains a borderline character, still annoyingly immortal and very powerful during Night, but with some counterparts. With his only 4 Life, he risks to be "killed" (returned to Argos) in a single turn if he's not defended by his teammates. Also, with his only one attack, when he reaches level 3 (and he will, because he's immortal), he will be a wimp during Daytime.

Deirdre
Problem: Overpowered level 3
When she's on level 1, Deirdre is very difficult to level up. But as soon as she reaches level 2 she skyrockets, because she gets the magic counterpart of the Dwarf's axe sweep: the mass-destruction Crescendo, which lets her kill lots of monsters and soon reach level 3... and becoming unstoppable.

The problem is not that she gains more blood and spells (all spellcasters do that in this game). The problem is not that she gains a massive healing spell, much better than any other healer (all level 3 abilities are pretty uber). The problem is that she gets 2 Magic attacks, so from level 2 to level 3 her power is more than doubled, making the Heroes impossible to beat with level 3 Deirdre at their side.

Solution: Deirdre has only 1 Attack in level 3. She will be still powerful because at level 3 she has a massive healing spell, and with all her spells, she will be competent in support, healing and attack.


Cedrik
Problem: Overpowered level 3
Cedrik seems a fun, flexible and well-thought character. He uses Familiars to attack and defend, has tricky spells to annoy monsters... until he reaches level 3 and becomes UberDruid. All because the "Healing Roots" spell that allows him to... ¡ta-daaa! Heal all his life, and all the life of his Familiars.

At this time, he has two magic attacks, so he can cast Healing Roots and another spell each turn. The only way to slay him is to deal him 7 attacks in the same turn, and if Cedrik makes use of his Familiars and his Bark Armor to defend himself, he becomes like impossible to kill. And we're not even taking into account the help of the rest of the Heroes!

Solution Cedrik has 5 Live at level 2. Healing Roots heals 1 life/wound to Cedrik and to all his Familiars.

The nerfed Healing Roots is still a good healing spell. It's still awesome because Cedrik is not supposed to be a Healer so having a good healing spell is great. And he can cast it every turn along with another spell, so he's going to heal a lot.

Lowering Cedrik's Life to 5 at level 2 is good because when going from level 1 to level 2, he already gets a lot of power because he gains a magic Attack. This way, the third level will give him an extra Life and two useful spells, for a more smooth leveling up.


Zohra
Problem: Artifact catching gameplay exploit
Zohra can jump from shadow to shadow, teleporting through black squares. This ability allows her to easily catch undefended Artifacts, allowing the Heroes go gather very easily all the three artifacts. This forces the DK to leave some scattered forces near each artifact in case Zohra takes the shadow route.

The problem is that Zohra is also a very good fighter than can kill easily these scattered monsters. And the DK cannot afford to scatter his forces if such a powerful fighter is making a strong advance with the rest of the Heroes.

Also, Zohra negates the Shadow Lesser Monsters ability. If some Shadows gather in order to ambush the party through black squares, Zohra can enter the black square and hunt them down easily with the extra strength and defense provided by the black square.


Solution: Zohra has only 4 life at level 1 and 5 life at levels 2 and 3. Her "Hide in Shadows" lv2 ability does not heal blood, it gives her an extra parry instead. Her "Agility" lv3 ability, instead of giving her 2 extra parries, allows her to use "Hide in Shadows" in any square (it could be reworded as "Hide in Plain Sight"). This way, both abilities cannot be combined.

Compare Zohra's lv3 with Ragnars' lv3 and you'll se how overpowered Zohra was. With these changes, both have 2 parries, both have 2 attacks and an ability that allows them to gain an extra attack. Ragnar has more life and the mummy immunity, but Zohra has the shadow-walk.

Zohra is now very fragile with low life, less parries and incapable of healing, even though her extra parry at level 2 and 3 helps a lot to keep her safe. She can still be used to kill lots of monsters, catch unprotected Artifacts and protect the party from Shadow ambushes, but she will think twice before leaving the protection of the party.
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Matthew Rooks
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I think this is a great start to trying to balance this great, yet unfortunately broken game.

Next, we need to improve the DK character powers a bit, perhaps allowing them to spawn monsters at a slightly higher rate. Also, new players to this game (and old ones too) need to see some viable strategies for playing the DK in order to counter the heroes' rather simple strategy of just keeping their characters together in a group. Some sort of countdown timer, where the DK wins in X amount of turns if the heroes have not collected all of the artifacts might also help in balancing the game a bit.

Anyway, I really like what you've done here! Dorn is one of my favorites in terms of theme and artwork, but unfortunately the broken gameplay means it doesn't get to the table anymore.
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This is my (untested) proposal to improve the following Hero:

Bogdan
Problem: three negative abilities
Bogdan is dismissed as a playable hero as soon as the players read his third negative ability. It sucks to play a Hero with so many limitations.

Solution: ignore all three negative abilities of Bogdan. He'll have only one negative ability, on level 1, called "Recklessness: Bogdan does not have the basic parry that other Heroes have.

A strong negative ability is much easier to remember and much less annoying than three mild negative abilities. You know that Bogdan is going to suffer a lot of damage, as any attack will harm him directly. In exchange for this, he has 2 attacks in level 1, but he should have more:

Bogdan has 7 life in level 1, 8 life in level 2, and 9 life in level 3

That seems a lot of life, but Bogdan won't be very resilient because of his lack of parries. However, he will be unkillable in only one turn, which is fine, and somewhat thematic, because he looks like a big muscled guy who doesn't wear any armor.

Problem: the lv2 ability "Hearts of Enemies" is dumb

Is he supposed to rip his enemies open, tear away their hearts and eat them? He's supposed to be a barbarian, not an evil cannibal cultist. Are the enemies supposed to leave behind powerups in the shape of hearts, like in The Legend of Zelda? Seriously, I don't understand why a barbarian should be able to heal himself through killing enemies. Most Heroes of the Koschei expansion have some auto-healing ability that is completely redundant, as Dorn offers many ways to heal the Heroes (four healing points and treasure cards). They can only be understood as power creep on the expansion Heroes.

Also, we already have a tank Hero that regenerates himself by killing enemies: Vargen. Bogdan feels so much like Vargen, and that's bad.

Solution: Instead of the "Hearts of Enemies", he gets: "Until the last breath: If Bogdan's life is reduced to zero during the DornKeeper's turn, he can still play one more turn and will be killed at the end of the next Heroes' turn."

That makes Bogdan a "Boromir" character. He gets to make a final and epic feat before biting the dust. Much more thematic and realistic for a barbarian.

His "Fury" ability remains untouched. Without the ability to auto-heal, Bogdan will be using his "Fury" much less. However, he will gladly pay 1 blood if that enables him to finish a dangerous enemy and avoid the next turn's retribution.

Problem: the lv3 ability "Hard as Rock" is a source of exploits

This ability bans the DornKeeper to make more than 3 damage to Bogdan each turn. If Heroes manage to heal at least 3 blood to Bogdan, he becomes unkillable. Hard to kill seems fun, unkillable seems artificial and gamey.

Solution: His level 3 ability "Hard as Rock" should go: "For each two blood lost during the DornKeeper's turn, Bogdan gains a parry during that DornKeeper's turn."

This makes Bogdan much more unkillable in just one turn, but leaves him still vulnerable to sustained little amounts of damage. In order to kill a full healed Bogdan lv3, the DK would need 13 attacks in the same turn, but only 1 attack during 9 turns.

This ability is not very good for a level 3 ability. This could be explained as Bogdan is overpowered in level 1 at the cost of being underpowered at level 3. But we can give him something extra: for example, a second lv3 ability that lets him activate "Fury" at no cost when having half or less life.

Problem: at this point, Bogdan is underpowered compared to Choros
Both are very resilient, and good fighters with 2 attacks in levels 2 and 3. Choros is stronger because of his Axe Sweep, so Bogdan should have something to compensate for this.

Solution: Bogdan's movement is 6 in level 1, 7 in level 2, and 8 in level 3"

That's it. Bogdan is fast. Choros isn't. Choros has the Axe Sweep and can withstand much more damage than Bogdan due to his parry and his auto-healing ability. But he's also much slower and sometimes he won't be able to actually attack the monsters or defend the party because of his short legs. Bogdan will be able to be always where he's needed to be, and reach easier the healing points.

In this version of Bogdan, he's fast and has a mountain of HP, less fearful of death than other heroes (because he gets a bonus when he dies), with a stronger level 1 and weaker level 3. That sounds "barbarian" to me.

Bodgan, what's the best thing in life? To crush the monsters, see their counters being used as XP before you, and to hear the lamentation of their DornKeeper.
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David Tlustak
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This is a great topic and has som really interesting ideas..

Even if I do not share the opinions on some of the characters.

For example: Speaking of Cedrik as overpowered at any point sounds wierd to me. Shure the healing ability is strong but he has a huge disadvantage in attack. He can only attack and kill weak creatures on level 1, this making him a rather hardto level up.
Mannand is very similar to Cedrik in this way, but you did not find him overpowered at any point.
Both of them are limited in their attacks and the DK can counter them with good game play.

This Also goes for Vargen. His healing abilities are strong, but there are his only abilities apart from walking through enemies. And he even is the only chracter from the basic game, that got nerfed (His speed got lowerd). The disadvantage of Varge is, that he is limited to certain grupes of creatures. With the expansion, he can be easylly counterd by shadows and fantoms.

In general I think you overfocused on level 3 abilities. A single level 3 character can't win the game, but with 2-3 of them the DK has as good as no chance. So the characters can aswell have rather strong abilities. The problem is not that the characters are now to strong. But to get to this level. The DK must lose to many creatures leaving him with a very limited number at this time.

For example a character I think need sa boost badly is Kaerdrak, a character hated in our grupe more then Bogdan (Bogdan is a Laught)

Now to point out what i expecially liked about your post.

The way you redisigned Bogdan is really great. He sounds interesting now and you purposed some new abilities.. I might make him one day to try him :-)

Almanors "cooldown" on icestorm (An oximoron.. nice) wich can prevent exploits with it.

Choros'axe... It's more logical, but I would not make it unblockabal, and rather would give the players an option to block it with a perry, but they would lose one parry in their next turn.


@ Matthew :
you want the DK to summon more creatures???? Why even now players have offten to much to deal with.
Remember that if you play totems and Zorkal, you can get up to 4 summons at night at Level 2.
A well played Koschei is worth even more, up to 6 summons at night.

On the topic of tips and triks for the DK. that is rather hard die to the fact, that the DK usually reacts to the heroes steps.

You can use general tips, or those that have been written in the other topic.
For example the "Forest of totem"(building all 3 totems near each other). Placing ghost or weak creatures on the artifact space, or creating an ambush party behind the orange teleport to the swamp.

But in most game, your moves will be base on the rituals you have and strong monsters you get. This making a 100% working strategy very hard.

You also must take into account which DK you play. Zorkal will make large attack formations. Koschei is better with small skirmish grupes, that can bring in a lot of blood, while giving only a small amounght of Exp. to the player, and in the best scenario dies with them.
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Dave_Jame wrote:
For example: Speaking of Cedrik as overpowered at any point sounds wierd to me. Shure the healing ability is strong but he has a huge disadvantage in attack. He can only attack and kill weak creatures on level 1, this making him a rather hardto level up.


In my experience, Cedrik had no problems levelling up. Even if Cedrik himself can only kill Weak Monsters, in the same turn, his Rat Familiar can attack Weak or Strong monsters (and Cedrik gets the Experience for its kills). So he gets 2 attacks (hornets + familiar) in level 1, and reaching level 2 is not that difficult for him. Gor, Mannand and Deirdre are much more difficult to level up (even if the original Gor usually refuses to level up because of not needing it).

Dave_Jame wrote:

Mannand is very similar to Cedrik in this way, but you did not find him overpowered at any point.
Both of them are limited in their attacks and the DK can counter them with good game play.


I have never played with Mannand nor Bogdan. Bogdan's abilities are quite simple and its obvious that he's underpowered, but I cannot propose any changes for Mannand yet because his abilities are complex and I cannot get a concrete idea of how would he be played.

Dave_Jame wrote:

This Also goes for Vargen. His healing abilities are strong, but there are his only abilities apart from walking through enemies. And he even is the only chracter from the basic game, that got nerfed (His speed got lowerd). The disadvantage of Varge is, that he is limited to certain grupes of creatures. With the expansion, he can be easylly counterd by shadows and fantoms.


I own a first Czech edition of Dorn that has been language-converted, so our Vargen has Movement 7 in all three levels. I forgot to mention that in my previous post, so my Vargen variant should have Movement 7.

Vargen is one of our favourite characters despite taking his healing rules wrong (the nerfed version of Vargen is how we played him initially).The amazing thing of Vargen is that he can heal himself without spending time, making him a better tank than Kaerdrak and sometimes Ragnar (healing 1 life each turn is better than having and extra parry).

Dave_Jame wrote:

In general I think you overfocused on level 3 abilities. A single level 3 character can't win the game, but with 2-3 of them the DK has as good as no chance. So the characters can aswell have rather strong abilities. The problem is not that the characters are now to strong. But to get to this level. The DK must lose to many creatures leaving him with a very limited number at this time.


You could be right. I often play as a DK and I don't get to see the imbalances of the Heroes until they reach lv3, because at that time they become a nightmare. Maybe they are also imbalanced in lv2 or lv1 (overpowered or underpowered) and I cannot see it. The opinion of Hero players would be great for this.

Except for Gor, Deirdre and probably Mannand, most characters have no problem reaching level 2. Many times, Heroes negotiate who gets the best killing blows in order to pile up all Experience in two or three Heroes, and later use those leveled characters to help the rest to reach level 2. At level 2, everybody has some amazing killing ability that lets him or her reach level 3 in a breeze.

The problem I find as a DK is that Heroes' best strategy is to storm the castle as a compact group. My monsters begin the game scattered, so if I try to bleed them with small raids, they get a lot of experience in exchange for a few blood drops. For the time I gather a good horde or try to fill the Ritual Chamber, they usually got one Artifact and three Treasures. Using Treasure, Artifacts and Blessings they kill my horde, reaching level 2 with some heroes. Up to this point, if they don't make mistakes, I feel unable to kill any Hero.

From here on, I do also level up and I typically kill one weak Hero thanks to a "take-that" Ritual and a fast raid, but the leftover Heroes are lv2 or lv3 and they feel physically unkillable thanks to some broken ability or combo.

Dave_Jame wrote:
For example a character I think need sa boost badly is Kaerdrak, a character hated in our grupe more then Bogdan (Bogdan is a Laught)


I agree. We haven't tested this variant yet, but someone proposed that Kaerdrak gets his Aura nerfed (instead of blocking all ranged attacks, block only one ranged attack each turn), and then another ability granted: "Favour of the Gods: Kaerdrak draws a new Blessing as soon as he reaches level 3". That would be cool for a Paladin. Also, despite having the first edition Dorn, we play with second edition Kaerdrak (with a extra Blood on each level), because he's useless otherwise.

Dave_Jame wrote:

The way you redisigned Bogdan is really great. He sounds interesting now and you purposed some new abilities.. I might make him one day to try him :-)


I would love to see your impressions. The more testing and opinions we have about these variants, the easier it will be to get a fix for this game.

Dave_Jame wrote:

Choros'axe... It's more logical, but I would not make it unblockabal, and rather would give the players an option to block it with a perry, but they would lose one parry in their next turn.


This is interesing, I will try it (Choros is nearly always present in our plays). All these variants are just proposals, they can be tuned a lot.

Another proposal for Choros was to limit his Axe Sweep to only 3 Monsters, but I thought this was not enough, because he rarely gets to sweep more than 3 Monsters, so he would have stayed the same.

Another proposal for Choros was to lower his movement to 5/5/5, lose its Speed Boost lv2 ability, and replace it with "Firm Step: Choros' Movement cannot be hindered or nullified by any effect. This includes Minotaurs' ability, the Freezing Dark Ritual, the Rubble treasure card, and the War Totem Slowdown." This makes Choros very slow, but at the same time the DK is not allowed to take abusive advantage of his slowness.
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After some plays and some IRL feedback, I think the second proposal for nerfing Choros is better than the one in the first post:

Choros v2.0
Problem: Slightly overpowered warrior.
Thanks to its mass-destruction axe sweep, Choros can easily bring down four monsters with only two attacks. He has also lots of life, and his only disadvantage is to be slower (Movement 5), but only in level 1. Choros is the favourite of many gamers and Heroes win more often when they have him in the party.

Solution: Choros has Movement 5 in all his three levels. His lv2 speed boosting ability is replaced by "Firm Step: Choros' Movement cannot be hindered or nullified by any effect. This includes Minotaurs' ability, the Freezing Dark Ritual, the Rubble treasure card, and the War Totem Slowdown."

This way, Choros' axe sweep gets untouched, retaining all his combat power. At the same time, he becomes the slowest character, but the Dornkeeper cannot take abusive advantage of his slowness.


Also, the following character needs a boost:

Kaerdrak
Problem: Very weak level 3.
The Paladin Aura can block any attack from a distance, in other words, attacks from Gorgons and Skeletons. In the base game, this was a good ability that was useful a few times. But after adding the expansion, this ability does not offer protection against any new monster, so being immune to Skeletons and Gorgons seems pretty lame when there can be no Gorgons in the whole game and there are 5 other Lesser Monster types along the Skeletons.

Solution: Kaerdrak's lv3 ability is replaced by the following two abilities:

"Favour of the Gods: as soon as Kaerdrak reaches lv3, he gets to draw two Blessing cards (only one Blessing card can be used during a turn)".

"Beyond Duty: when Kaerdrak dies, at the end of the turn replace his figure with a Ghost Familiar who fights in the team of the Heroes".

The usefulness of the first ability depends on the Blessings drawn, but it has good potential, and makes lv3 Kaerdrak much more desirable than the old one. The second ability is mere chrome inspired by a scene of the "The Order of the Stick" webcomic. The Familiar Ghost will be killed in one or two turns, but it will be annoying for the DornKeeper.

Think of it: how epic and satisfying would be that, after his death, the spirit of Kaerdrak could make the difference between victory and defeat, killing the last lesser monster that blocks the path to the Gates of Doom or buying time for the heroes by blocking a mob of zombies advancing into the Ritual Chamber.
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We tested Bogdan and we understood why he got a healing ability in the first place. Being unable to parry, he gives many blood drops to the Dornkeeper. Still, Bogdan does not feel fragile in the first two levels, because thanks to his early 2 attacks, he can kill fast any opposition.

As the game advances and monsters are easily summoned, Bogdan loses blood too fast and can be killed by many little unexpectedly summoned monsters. It's not bad, because he's supposed to be overpowered in level 1 and underpowered in level 3. However, a "once per turn" regenerative ability is totally non-fitting for a Barbarian. Our solution has been to give him a "just once" mega-healing effect when he reaches level 3.

This is the last proposal for Bogdan:

Bogdan v2.0

Level 1
Movement: 6
Life: 7
Attacks: 2


[Attack] Bastard Sword Bogdan deals [1 damage] to an adjacent Monster.
Recklessness: Bogdan does not have the basic parry that other Heroes have.


Level 2
Movement: 7
Life: 8
Attacks: 2


Fury (1x, 1 blood): Bogdan gains 1 additional attack this turn. If Bogdan has 3 or less [blood], he doesn't have to pay [blood] to activate his Fury.
Until the last breath: If Bogdan's life is reduced to zero during the DornKeeper's turn, he can still play one more turn and will be killed at the end of the next Heroes' turn. No effect can save him from this fate.


Level 3
Movement: 8
Life: 9
Attacks: 2


Gathering Strength from your own Weakness*: When he reaches level 3, instead of recovering 1 [blood], Bogdan recovers 5 [blood].


(* the best translation I found for "Sacar Fuerzas de Flaqueza")
 
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