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Subject: Cumberland River question rss

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Let's see if you guys can help me out with this one.

According to 6.62 (example B) a fort in Dover negates UNC into Clarksville, TN and Nashville, TN. How come? I mean, according to 6.62 point 2, and given that the Cumberland originates in a non-Confederate state (KY), it should take a second fort in Nashville (other than the one in Dover) to deny Union Naval Control over Clarksville and Nashville, shouldn't it? Or does the Cumberland originate where it becomes navigable, that is, right in Nashville, TN?

And this here is a question from a previous thread ('Newbie question list') that couldn't get answered--thanks again Marti for all the questions that DID get answered: "When you place the generals (during the reinforcement phase) do you have to stick to the rules of 1SP per general even when placing it directly into an Army? For example, can you place a general in an Army which already has 4 SPs and 4 generals?" (see 10.61).

This is a great game, yessir!
 
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Martí Cabré

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About the Cumberland, all the rivers originate in the mountains and go to the sea. The map has little black arrows by the rivers to indicate the flow of the river.

So the Cumberland originates in Nashville, goes through Dover into the Tennesse and the Ohio and then to the Mississippi proper.

Thus, if there's a CSA fort in Paducah or Dover, the stretch of river between that fort and Nashville is blocked to the USA ironclads and the CSA troops can cross it.
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Randy C
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the designer has indicated that the union naval control starts at the head of navigation of a river, not where the river may actually start. I assume shipbuilding takes place there, that is why it must be in non-confederate state.

Union naval control means union gunboats. These gunboats cannot be built at the start of the Cumberland river, in tiny creeks and streambeds in KY, and then sail downriver to Nashville! [Unless they start real small and grow when they get wet, kinda like those little dinosours for kids that grow when they get wet]

Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.
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Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, on the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?
 
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Randy C
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I would refer you to 5.29 where an army can have at most 3 more generals than sp's.

And 5.34 where a space can have at most 1 more generals than sp's.

this is checked at the beginning and end of every strategy round.

Hope this helps.

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David Millette
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chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.
 
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mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.
 
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Martí Cabré

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It's not clear for me, though I doubt I've been in that situation.

Maybe take a look at errata files in the file section, or ask Mr. Herman, he is registered here.
 
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marticabre wrote:
It's not clear for me, though I doubt I've been in that situation.

Maybe take a look at errata files in the file section, or ask Mr. Herman, he is registered here.


Have read most of the files but couldn't get an answer. Thanks anyway. Let's hope someone (perhaps the big man himself) can throw some more light on this one. Cheers.
 
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chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.


You're right. I didn't comprehend that second sentence until you pointed it out. Hmmm. I still think it's a limit factor in effect only when placing generals during the placing generals phase. My new thought is that you cannot place a general into any space that would cause there to be more generals than SPs during step C of the reinforcement phase. This includes generals that are already on that space.

This does not have anything to do with general limits during regular gameplay (i.e. +3 more than sp, etc.). It's only when placing generals that this limit applies.

That's the way I see it.
 
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mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.


You're right. I didn't comprehend that second sentence until you pointed it out. Hmmm. I still think it's a limit factor in effect only when placing generals during the placing generals phase. My new thought is that you cannot place a general into any space that would cause there to be more generals than SPs during step C of the reinforcement phase. This includes generals that are already on that space.

This does not have anything to do with general limits during regular gameplay (i.e. +3 more than sp, etc.). It's only when placing generals that this limit applies.

That's the way I see it.


David, I'm glad to see we share the same understanding, but now we are back again to square one, . My original question was "Can you place a general in an Army which already has 4 SPs and 4 generals?" (that is, during step C of reinforcement phase). Should Armies abide by this restriction too, or are they an exception to the rule?
 
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chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.


You're right. I didn't comprehend that second sentence until you pointed it out. Hmmm. I still think it's a limit factor in effect only when placing generals during the placing generals phase. My new thought is that you cannot place a general into any space that would cause there to be more generals than SPs during step C of the reinforcement phase. This includes generals that are already on that space.

This does not have anything to do with general limits during regular gameplay (i.e. +3 more than sp, etc.). It's only when placing generals that this limit applies.

That's the way I see it.


David, I'm glad to see we share the same understanding, but now we are back again to square one, :D. My original question was "Can you place a general in an Army which already has 4 SPs and 4 generals?" (that is, during step C of reinforcement phase). Should Armies abide by this restriction too, or are they an exception to the rule?


Forgive me for muddling this up further... I'm confusing myself now.

Here's what the text in question says...

"If more than one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same space, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space. Generals that are
already in the space count against this limit for these purposes."

Again, I think that the first unrevealed general placed can be guided by the general rules of the game (i.e. sp+3). If you want to place a 2nd unrevealed general in the same space during step c of the reinforcement phase, then there is a restriction that kicks in for step c of the reinforcement phase only (has to be at least 1 sp per general in the space). I don't think it matters whether the space contains an army or not, as it doesn't say that there is a distinction. A space is a space regardless of whether or not an army occupies it.
 
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mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.


You're right. I didn't comprehend that second sentence until you pointed it out. Hmmm. I still think it's a limit factor in effect only when placing generals during the placing generals phase. My new thought is that you cannot place a general into any space that would cause there to be more generals than SPs during step C of the reinforcement phase. This includes generals that are already on that space.

This does not have anything to do with general limits during regular gameplay (i.e. +3 more than sp, etc.). It's only when placing generals that this limit applies.

That's the way I see it.


David, I'm glad to see we share the same understanding, but now we are back again to square one, . My original question was "Can you place a general in an Army which already has 4 SPs and 4 generals?" (that is, during step C of reinforcement phase). Should Armies abide by this restriction too, or are they an exception to the rule?


Forgive me for muddling this up further... I'm confusing myself now.

Here's what the text in question says...

"If more than one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same space, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space. Generals that are
already in the space count against this limit for these purposes."

Again, I think that the first unrevealed general placed can be guided by the general rules of the game (i.e. sp+3). If you want to place a 2nd unrevealed general in the same space during step c of the reinforcement phase, then there is a restriction that kicks in for step c of the reinforcement phase only (has to be at least 1 sp per general in the space). I don't think it matters whether the space contains an army or not, as it doesn't say that there is a distinction. A space is a space regardless of whether or not an army occupies it.


Now I'm all confused. I thought the second sentence had convinced you. What made you revert back to your original interpretation?
 
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chokin wrote:
Now I'm all confused. I thought the second sentence had convinced you. What made you revert back to your original interpretation?


I went back and reread the section of the rules again to be sure since I was getting a little confused. When I read your post I simply forgot about "If more than one unrevealed general is to be place in the same space, (then) there.... That If, then combo is the key to me.

Here's the text again:

"If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space. Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes."

I think this means if only one unrevealed general is to be placed in a space (during this turns step c of the reinforcement phase), then you would follow normal rules in regards to how many generals can occupy a space. Only when the "if" part of the sentence is realized does the "then" part of the rule kick in. Again, no mention that an army occupying a space is any different than if it's a corps in regards to the "then" part of the restriction.



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Makes sense. "If" some other gamer could just double-check this we'd be very happy . Thanks.
 
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mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
chokin wrote:
Calxx55 wrote:
Leaders can be placed with sp up to the allowed limits. The limits are:

1 more than number of sp's in the space
3 more than number of sp's in an army

Hope this helps.

And I agree, the game is excellent.


Thank you guys, I was somewhat inclined to your suggestions but wanted to know for sure.

Randy, one the second issue, I was refering to 10.61 (reinforcement phase--bringing leaders to the game): "at least 1SP per general". Question was: still applies when general placed into an Army?


I am no expert by any means, but I think the wording in 10.61 is designed to stop someone from placing a whole bunch of crudy generals in a hex with one sp.

The first general placed is normal. It can go anywhere that a general can normally be placed sp+3, etc. It's when attempting to place a 2nd general in the same space that one was already placed in the placing generals phase that the rule of 1 general per 1 sp rule kicks in. But, this is only during the placing generals phase and it only applies when trying to place a 2nd general in the same space as one previously placed that turn. In that case, then yes the limit would apply to the army as well, after a general has already been placed there that turn of course. That's the way I see it anyway.


What you say makes sense David, and the giveaway word seems to be "unrevealed" in the sentence "If more that one unrevealed general is to be placed in the same place, there must be at least 1 SP per general in the space." However, I still don't feel quite sure about it, because in the next sentence it reads "Generals that are already in the space count against this limit for these purposes." "Already" being those from previous rounds, or those previously placed during step C of the reinforcement phase (as you argue)? The wording is not clear for me here, but perhaps I'm missing something.


You're right. I didn't comprehend that second sentence until you pointed it out. Hmmm. I still think it's a limit factor in effect only when placing generals during the placing generals phase. My new thought is that you cannot place a general into any space that would cause there to be more generals than SPs during step C of the reinforcement phase. This includes generals that are already on that space.

This does not have anything to do with general limits during regular gameplay (i.e. +3 more than sp, etc.). It's only when placing generals that this limit applies.

That's the way I see it.


Someone must have said Beetlejuice three times.

This is the right answer. The 5.34 etc. restrictions apply at the beginning and end of a strategy round. This restriction applies to reinforcements. Basically you can maneuver an army to have up to 3 greater and a corps up to one greater than the number of SPs in a space, but when placing new generals you cannot overload a corps or army initially.

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Thanks, Mr. Herman.
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MarkHerman wrote:
Someone must have said Beetlejuice three times.

Mark


I've been trying with Candyman x 5 in front of the mirror

Nice to meet you Sir and thank you for finally setting the record straight on this issue. And thank you for such a gem of a game.

P.
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