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Subject: Gameplay dullness? rss

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Yuriy Matuhno
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I know, there is not enough information for this statement yet, but I'll just post some of my thoughts here. All based on first gameplay video.

So, the players battling a giant enemy... monster, and it seems he'll be always alone, so not much strategical target selection.

Lets talk player actions: players can "move" and "use piece of equipment".
The only equipment being used in the video was a weapon.

So, attacking. When you attack, you roll a die and if you're LUCKY enough, you'll score a hit(which has a potential of failing to deliver any damage). Then, after scoring a hit, you draw a RANDOM hit location card and roll again, trying to penetrate monster's toughness, and if you're LUCKY once again, you'll do a damage. More of it, if you're very lucky, you will score a critical hit which will cause a permanent weakness to the monster.

I don't know about you, but I see a bad pattern here. Entire attack breaks down into 3 sequentual parts, and all of them are based on pure RANDOM.

The only way for a player to influence this I've seen on the video is flanking, which grants +1 bonus to the first part of the attack.

Some people might say that choice of gear is matters here too, but hey - people will go for best available all the time, and they make this choice before the showdown phase anyways, they can't do anything about it once battle beings.

What bothers me is you can't even pick a location you're trying to hit.
I understand, why monster pick hit location randomly, but players?
And you can hit an eye from the back, lol(yes, I've seen the picture, still...).

Talking about monster actions, all I've seen was his attacks and a "mood" card, which just improved his attack and is followed instantly by another attack. The only difference between the two shown was a target selection method. I hope there'll be more variety in AI cards. And what about this "wounding monster discards an AI card and makes it more predicteble"? You discard it facedown, you don't know whats was on this card, how is he more predicteble now?

Right now, the only valid(and the only at all) tactic I can see is ganging up at foe's rear, hoping for good rolls.

This can be interesting for some people, of course, but isn't it just TOO luck dependent? I mean, this way you could see a game when first attack scores a critical hit on some extremely valuable monster body part, crippling him and making the rest of the battle a piece of cake, and vice versa. And players can do nothing about it but watch, being a slaves of the dice(and card draws aswell).

Since the only things player can do is "move" and "use piece of equipment", it means characters won't have any skills or abilites on their own, however I noticed "survival" and "weapon mastery" on a character sheet. Survival will seemingly let you auto-dodge an attack made against you a couple times(if any) during the battle, while there is no information about weapon mastery, but I'll guess it'll just improve the chances of hitting.

Thats my concern. Thanks.
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Mike Malley
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Wounded monsters become more predictable upon re-shuffles. Adam hinted that different monsters feel different due to their attack styles. And yeah, this game is solidly narrative, though there's a light puzzle aspect with the gear, and likely the settlement. With the right crowd, i've had all kinds of fun with simple games, but that obviously depends on the person.
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Team Ski
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caffeinehead wrote:
Wounded monsters become more predictable upon re-shuffles. Adam hinted that different monsters feel different due to their attack styles. And yeah, this game is solidly narrative, though there's a light puzzle aspect with the gear, and likely the settlement. With the right crowd, i've had all kinds of fun with simple games, but that obviously depends on the person.


I think you will find that combat is only a small proportion of the overall game system. It seems that many of the decision points are actually off the battlefield in the other two phases of the game, the hunt phase and especially, the settlement phase. The game is designed to be played over many sessions to attempt to grow the settlements. So, I am not too concerned about boring combat at this point.

-Ski
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Paul DeStefano
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I'm trying to think of a minis game that doesn't have your complaints.

You use what items you have and what skills you have and roll dice.

Sometimes it's one die, sometimes it's a card, sometimes dozens of dice.

But in the end, this is pretty much what minis games boil down to.

From X-Wing to Malifaux, you "Move" and "Use" and randomly do stuff.
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Yuriy Matuhno
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I wonder how much diffetent can they feel, given limited list of actions they can perform and space inside which they operate.
 
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G G
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TrueLolzor wrote:
So, the players battling a giant enemy... monster, and it seems he'll be always alone, so not much strategical target selection.

Lets talk player actions: players can "move" and "use piece of equipment".


Um, have you ever played Ogre? Or any other board game, for that matter?

Don't we typically move, then roll a die to hit, roll a die for damage, maybe roll a die for saving throw?
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Ian Johnston
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So far we have not seen much variety in gameplay, which is not surprising for an introductory video.

Beyond the intro video I know:
The fight against each monster will take place on a much larger board when the game ships. Terrain may become a factor, as will movement, especially with monsters that pick up and carry away players.

Equipment will also add more options to game play, as will acquired status effects and insanity. I also suspect different monsters will require different styles of combat to defeat, so a single "best" equipment load-out will not always be possible. Also, loot drops also determine what you can create.

Re: predictability. Monster's reshuffle their AI deck when they run out. However, this only applies to the cards it used (not ones you discarded by doing damage). So you know what the monster will do because it already attacked in that way before. There are also images of equipment that allows you to look at AI cards.

A core element mentioned at one time was there were ways to look through the AI deck and remove particular cards--either through a precise strike, or maybe hunting the monster and getting the jump on it limiting it's options.

I agree about the randomness of attacking being rather high. Perhaps later equipment or skills will allow you to pick a location to attack or draw multiple hit locations and choose one. The fight we saw appeared to include only starting equipment so the weapons were quite weak.

I also suspect more options will open up as you play and develop your settlement. In the fluff behind the game, people just wake up fully formed with no knowledge. Language has to be developed in the game (if you don't have it, you cannot tell your friends about AI cards you may have been able to peek at). So additional possible actions once learned could include: first aid on allies, distracting the monster, luring it, attempting to restrain it attack more or less recklessly, attack specific hit locations etc.
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Yuriy Matuhno
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Geosphere wrote:
I'm trying to think of a minis game that doesn't have your complaints.

You use what items you have and what skills you have and roll dice.

Sometimes it's one die, sometimes it's a card, sometimes dozens of dice.

But in the end, this is pretty much what minis games boil down to.

From X-Wing to Malifaux, you "Move" and "Use" and randomly do stuff.

This is not about not using dice or items you have, this is about being too dependent on random having so few options.
 
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Yuriy Matuhno
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qwertywraith wrote:
So far we have not seen much variety in gameplay, which is not surprising for an introductory video.
I hope what you said is true. But, with this random pattern, game might grow into a faceroll when players are geared up.

GrauGeist wrote:
Um, have you ever played Ogre? Or any other board game, for that matter?

Don't we typically move, then roll a die to hit, roll a die for damage, maybe roll a die for saving throw?
No, I didn't played Ogre. What do you mean by "any other board game"? I've played plenty.

Sometimes you do, why? This is not about the order or the things you do, this is about if what you do is actually matters. For example, there is a 10% chance that flanking a monster will actually help you to hit him. And this is the only actual player choice I can tell of so far.
 
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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Euro-gamers gonna Euro-game?

Its an American style, theme-heavy game, with all the pluses and minuses that come with it. If its not for you, its not for you, and a million options from Puerto-Rico onward are right there for you. No harm if this just doesn't float your boat.

For me, personally, the gameplay video dismissed many of my doubts and I am fully excited again for the weird grandchild of Warhammer Quest, and weirder still nephew of Monster Hunter.

Sign me up. Oh wait... i'll do that myself once a few more game-play-centric stretch goals are announced.

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Dérek Boily
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@Newtruthneomaxim Agreed.

This game has a very strong story-telling element to it. It's all about surviving in an hostile, dangerous and unknown place. For me, all this luck involved actually makes sense as the players are actually thrown in a mysterious place without much information about what they should or even could do.

And yes, this is definitely not a euro-type game. Still, luck can be very fun sometimes...
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Yuriy Matuhno
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Telling me to go pick another game, how mature.
Especially when I'm not complaining or trying to make something look bad.
I'm just writing down my concern, those concerns might just dissapear as more of the gameplay details revealed, but now is now.

For me, luck is not fun on it's own, there is must be something to make it fun. And simple existance of cool-looking miniatures with some background does not covers it.

How can you say that game has a very strong story-telling element to it? There is no information about anything like this yet. I know there'll be some lore and some encounters outside of the battle, but calling this "heavy story-telling"...
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TrueLolzor wrote:
Telling me to go pick another game, how mature.
Especially when I'm not complaining or trying to make something look bad.
I'm just writing down my concern, those concerns might just dissapear as more of the gameplay details revealed, but now is now.

For me, luck is not fun on it's own, there is must be something to make it fun. And simple existance of cool-looking miniatures with some background does not covers it.

How can you say that game has a very strong story-telling element to it? There is no information about anything like this yet. I know there'll be some lore and some encounters outside of the battle, but calling this "heavy story-telling"...


Again, we are missing out on the other two phases of the game, which is where I think a lot of the real storytelling will happen.

-Ski
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Yuriy Matuhno
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My guess is one of those phases is about upgrading the settlement and crafting, so not much storytelling there.

The second one is something like drawing a random encounter. I don't think this game is heavy story-driven.

Examples of heavy story-telling games: Mansions of Madness, Descent 2e.
I don't think this game will be anything near them in terms of story-telling. Again, this is not because the game is "bad", it's just because the only thing that makes a game heavy story telling is fixed scenario(with some variants, but its still fixed), while the encounter phase of KD:M sound like something random.
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Jason Sherlock
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After watching the video, I had a similar concern that unless there is much more to the game, this will get to be a dungeon crawl (kick in the door, fight a monster, grab some loot, upgrade your weapons for the next room, repeat), which will get dull pretty quick.

I think, and hope, that there will be a lot more to the game, with random events, and some kind of story driving things. The fact that one of the bonus characters has his own mini-campaign gives me a good feeling, as it implies that a campaign must have more to it than just kill stuff, grab loot and upgrade.

I look forward to seeing the next videos. So far I am on the fence for this one but leaning around 70/30 in favor of pledging.
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Team Ski
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TrueLolzor wrote:
My guess is one of those phases is about upgrading the settlement and crafting, so not much storytelling there.

The second one is something like drawing a random encounter. I don't think this game is heavy story-driven.

Examples of heavy story-telling games: Mansions of Madness, Descent 2e.
I don't think this game will be anything near them in terms of story-telling. Again, this is not because the game is "bad", it's just because the only thing that makes a game heavy story telling is fixed scenario(with some variants, but its still fixed), while the encounter phase of KD:M sound like something random.


I don't think that a storyline has to be in the form of heavily scripted scenarios. In this case, the storyline comes from the gameplay itself. I look at KD as the miniature gaming version of Risk Legacy where the story comes from the players themselves. When you pass on your armor to your kids, that is a story in itself, IMHO. I wish that the D&D series of coops had this sort of multi-session system. It fascinates me. The combat is but one portion of that.


-Ski
 
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Yuriy Matuhno
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I wouldn't call it "heavy".
 
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mikael peterson
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The game-play video showed a very simple example and, as a minis player, I would be disappointed if the example represented the full range of options. Not because I want less randomness, but because I want more choices.
I think terrain might be an easy way to add options and the example board is known to be a stand-in for the final board, so we'll see. There was also an unexplained weapon parameter ('Physical' in the video) that may have interesting game effects.

As others have noted, there are other phases which should add interesting choices to the game. But the big monster fight is the reason I'm interested in this game to begin with. I'd like to know that I'll have interesting choices when playing that phase.
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Aaron Gelb
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@OP

I understand your concerns. ..and like you I WANT this game to be heart stoppingly awesome. I beleive it will.

I had the same feeeling about Arkham Horror. Move to a spot. Draw a random card. Roll a die. Repeat. Dont like the game but its hugely popular and successful for a reason. Theme? Who knows. But this game is about beautiful models, cooperation, and overcoming odds while growing together.

It might be a bit luck heavy but I know ill like it.

I would like it even more if future expansions would introduce terrain, board-hazards like pits/traps, and perhaps a mechanic for multiple monsters...not necessarily like fighting more than one dragon, but a bunch of little monsters that act as one in terms of the monster deck...like one encounter could be a lion, and the next encounter would be like 6 little imps, and their specific deck controls all of them.

I would also love to see a little bit of magic introduced, like healing magic or some sort of telekenisis or fire magic.
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Team Ski
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Mikaeljp wrote:
The game-play video showed a very simple example and, as a minis player, I would be disappointed if the example represented the full range of options. Not because I want less randomness, but because I want more choices.
I think terrain might be an easy way to add options and the example board is known to be a stand-in for the final board, so we'll see. There was also an unexplained weapon parameter ('Physical' in the video) that may have interesting game effects.

As others have noted, there are other phases which should add interesting choices to the game. But the big monster fight is the reason I'm interested in this game to begin with. I'd like to know that I'll have interesting choices when playing that phase.


I really like your idea about terrain. That would add a lot of decision points for sure.

-Ski
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Yuriy Matuhno
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Mikaeljp wrote:
The game-play video showed a very simple example and, as a minis player, I would be disappointed if the example represented the full range of options. Not because I want less randomness, but because I want more choices.
This is what I'm talking about. The choices.

asgelb wrote:
@OP
I understand your concerns. ..and like you I WANT this game to be heart stoppingly awesome. I beleive it will.
You and me, bro. You and me.
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Mike Malley
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I'm going to use the stone-face inserts as obstructing terrain, or maybe even Spots of Power (tm) that a monster would permanently negate by standing on. We'll have to see what makes sense when we get the full rules, but how difficult could it be to add them in?
 
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Brent Lloyd
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I agree with the Original Poster.

I sincerely hope your tactical options are not just limited to moving behind the monster or standing still and using a weapon. I hope there are lots of different kinds of weapons, different kinds of terrain, different types of attacks with different weapons, etc.

Ranged weapons, Blunt weapons, Stabbing weapons, etc.

Peace
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Mark Sautman
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After watching the video, there's lots of theme with the AI cards, the types of attacks, and the effects they have, but I have to agree with the original poster that there does not seem to be much for me to do other than move adjacent (or possibly within range) and start rolling dice. I'm a boardgamer first and play a lot of wargames where maneuvering and tactics have a lot of influence on the battle result. I like cool minis, but if I just want to roll dice, I'll play Runebound.

I'm also wondering if there is anything besides just skirmishes. I like a good dungeon crawl where there is some exploration as well as different scenarios besides just fighting. I know he said the board is 2' X 3', but the contents only state:
10 Location Tiles

That seems like nothing when you compare it to Space Hulk, 1st edition Descent, Earth Reborn or other games where you have tons of opportunity to design interesting locations.

I'm still holding off until there are some more videos before buying this.
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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TrueLolzor wrote:
Telling me to go pick another game, how mature.
Especially when I'm not complaining or trying to make something look bad.
I'm just writing down my concern, those concerns might just dissapear as more of the gameplay details revealed, but now is now.

For me, luck is not fun on it's own, there is must be something to make it fun. And simple existance of cool-looking miniatures with some background does not covers it.

How can you say that game has a very strong story-telling element to it? There is no information about anything like this yet. I know there'll be some lore and some encounters outside of the battle, but calling this "heavy story-telling"...



Incidentally... how was I being "immature" in suggesting that there are many GREAT games that will offer you a meaningful experience that is utterly without randomness?

Sometimes I think in this age of internet, everyone assumes they are being trolled the minute they hear something they perceive is negative, and add a tone in their head.

I wanted to help give you an answer, geez.

EDIT: Wait a sec... You've got a Legend of Drizzt micro-badge and you're complaining about games with few meaningful choices, and random dice rolls out the rear? Really? Seriously? I like those games too... but you do see the irony here right?
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