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Red Dragon, Blue Dragon: The Huaihai, 1948-1949» Forums » General

Subject: Is this real? rss

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Chris
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Can you even get this? Does this game even really exist? There is no picture of the actual gameplay, no other entry than on BGG and nothing else on the net.
 
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Brian Train
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To answer your somewhat belligerent question, yes, this game exists but it has not been published yet, and it will come out under a different title.
It is on the schedule to be published in Against The Odds magazine in a different form, called Thunder Out of China.
However it needs votes: if you are interested in seeing this game get published, you should go to the ATO website and vote for it.

https://atomagazine.readyhosting.com/pipeline.cfm?CFID=23699...

Here is the description from the site:
Quote:

Thunder Out of China!
(98 votes)
This is an operational-level game about the largest and most decisive battle of the Chinese Civil War: the Battle of the Huai-Hai. This showdown determined that the Nationalist forces of Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai-Shek) would be driven from the mainland into exile on Taiwan. It was the culmination of 20 years of on-again-off-again civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists.

In 1946, the eight-year-long truce between Nationalists and Communists that had held together during the War of Resistance against Japan finally broke down. Both sides raced to seize cities and rail lines in China formerly held by the Japanese. By November, 1948, the Nationalists had suffered severe reverses in Manchuria and the north. The Communist leadership decided the time had come to move into central China, so they targeted the area around the strategically crucial city of Xuzhou, about halfway between Beijing (Peking) and Nanjing (Nanking). The result was an enormous battle of annihilation that involved over half a million fighters on each side. The Communists also mobilized as many as five million peasants to help move supplies.

This is very much an Against The Odds! situation: The Nationalists are well-armed with air support, artillery, road mobility, and tanks. And yet it is the Nationalists who are going up "against the odds"! Despite their material superiority, most Nationalist units have morale so low that "defectors" from their army are the main source of replacements for the Communists! The Communists are light, lean, and very well-motivated. The battle develops asymmetrically between the powerful but ponderous Nationalists and the mobile Communists.

Designed by Earl Dixon, Thunder Out of China features a map drawn to 20 kilometers per hex, with one week turns. There are over 150 unit counters and markers. Units are mostly Nationalist "Corps" and Communist "Columns" of about 20,000-30,000 soldiers. There are also artillery regiments and tank battalions: the Communists have a few; the Nationalists have a lot more. Both sides are subdivided (as they were historically) into "sub-commands." The rules cover unique aspects of this struggle: Nationalist Defections, Communist Guerrillas, the Propaganda Offensive, Communist "Short Attacks", Communist Re-Education, Red Militia, Nationalist Final Defense Positions, and more. Players may discern the early origins of the ferocious Red Chinese attack against UN forces in Korea a mere two years after this battle, as well as elements of guerrilla warfare that later became familiar in Vietnam.

Virtually unknown in the West, this battle is quite familiar to mainland Chinese and to those on Taiwan as well. It's a fair description to call it the "Gettysburg" of the Chinese Civil War.


And you can see commentary on it here too:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1dd51b25/91?14@848.zXcAa2u...@

You can also get game files including counters rules and map. Someone
(
Michel Boucher
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has also made a VASSAL module for it too.

Thank your for your interest in this very significant battle.

Brian
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Chris
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Sorry if taken as, but this was in no way ment to be belligerent. I just desperatly search for a good wargame with Chinese Civil War background. This sounds very promising, way more promising than any other comparable game. So thanks a lot for your information!
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Brian Train
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Well, I can understand your frustration, as there are almost no games on the Chinese Civil War out there - there is Chinese Civil War and you can play a CCW game as an extension to my own designBattle for China (first edition) , More Battle for China and that is about it.

I would have designed a Huai-Hai battle game if Earl Dixon had not beaten me to it.

Brian
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Chris
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I can get your game for a decent price in Germany. The Fiery Dragon Edition is the one containing the expansion right? I'll give it a try, thank you very much for your help!
 
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Brian Train
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The Fiery Dragon Deluxe Edition is the one that includes the expansion kit. Also, the Japanese Command edition has the expansion kit but it's very difficult to find.

Even if you get a copy (Fiery Dragon or Strategy and Tactics magazine edition) without the expansion kit, you can still download the maps, counters, charts and rules for the expansion kit for free here on BGG. I drew two different sets of expansion maps, one for the Fiery Dragon edition
(http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/8546/more-ba...)

and one for the larger magazine edition map.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38827/battle-for-chin...

Brian

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John H
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ElFluppe wrote:
Can you even get this? Does this game even really exist? There is no picture of the actual gameplay, no other entry than on BGG and nothing else on the net.


This game is definitely becoming real in Against the Odds Magazine. The ATO version has a new BGG listing though.

Red Dragon, Blue Dragon: The Huaihai, 1948-1949

This is great news!

----

A quick aside to this response to the OP's question:

ltmurnau wrote:
To answer your somewhat belligerent question,


His question was a perfectly reasonable question, far from belligerent. It's quite natural to wonder if a self-published game with no apparent real-world or internet evidence actually exists in any purchasable or downloadable form. Perhaps it was a bit abrupt, but this is an internet forum and brief communiques like that are normal online protocol in a world with Twitter and a million conversations going on at once.

I once opined cheerfully that Fiery Dragon makes awesome games, and I wish they could produce more. Your response was along the lines of "The owner is busy feeding his family..." ??? Not sure where you're sensing negativity that doesn't exist. There's no complaining going on here, just sincere interest and appreciation. I hope you can feel the positive vibes!

People appreciate your games, your available downloads, and the contributions you make to the gaming community. (At least I do, very much) Thanks for all your postings!
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Lem Tohver
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The game is done and shipping now to subscribers. Should be available in stores soon as well. One note, the AAR that Terrance posted in another thread is nothing like what the current produced game is like. You can view the rules to this produced version Here:

http://www.atomagazine.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=139

Scroll down on the right side of the window.

Lembit
ATO Edition Developer
 
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Rodger Samuel
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Mine arrived yesterday. Looks interesting.
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simon
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any feedback anyone having played it yet???
 
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