Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Eclipse: Rise of the Ancients» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Feeling a bit underwhelmed by Dreadnoughts rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
I just played a 2-player game against my wife. I went for using dreadnoughts as my main battle ships. The results were a bit underwhelming, and I shall tell you why. They confirmed a nagging feeling I had had earlier.

The thing with dreadnoughts is, there's only two models of them, and it takes 16 material to get out both. Whereas there are four cruisers, which it takes 20 to get out. And I'd think that given equal tech levels and symmetric build options, 4 cruisers would typically have more combined power than 2 dreadnoughts.

So cruisers give more maximum power that can be got out of a single ship type. Once you've maxed out that ship type, you'd need to build ships of another type. With cruisers, that cap doesn't hit you as soon. The main problem with relying on many ship types for your main battle strength (i.e. winning battles, not tactical uses like pinning, raiding etc) is that each ship type needs to be upgraded separately. And here the dreadnought is doubly penalized, as it not only requires more actions to upgrade fully, but the point where you need to start upgrading your 2nd ship type hits you earlier.

So if I've come to the point where my material production is large enough that getting out all pieces of the same type becomes possible, is there any reason to go for dreadnoughts primarily rather than cruisers?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Konrad von Richtmark wrote:
I just played a 2-player game against my wife. I went for using dreadnoughts as my main battle ships. The results were a bit underwhelming, and I shall tell you why. They confirmed a nagging feeling I had had earlier.

The thing with dreadnoughts is, there's only two models of them, and it takes 16 material to get out both. Whereas there are four cruisers, which it takes 20 to get out. And I'd think that given equal tech levels and symmetric build options, 4 cruisers would typically have more combined power than 2 dreadnoughts.

So cruisers give more maximum power that can be got out of a single ship type. Once you've maxed out that ship type, you'd need to build ships of another type. With cruisers, that cap doesn't hit you as soon. The main problem with relying on many ship types for your main battle strength (i.e. winning battles, not tactical uses like pinning, raiding etc) is that each ship type needs to be upgraded separately. And here the dreadnought is doubly penalized, as it not only requires more actions to upgrade fully, but the point where you need to start upgrading your 2nd ship type hits you earlier.

So if I've come to the point where my material production is large enough that getting out all pieces of the same type becomes possible, is there any reason to go for dreadnoughts primarily rather than cruisers?


I agree with your assessment, but dreadnoughts are valuable for those really important battles. Besides you have only 4 cruisers and these may not be enough as well.

I find interceptors to be useful for nipping by and "stealing" enemy hexes under their noses (with neutron bombs), and of course to pin a few enemy ships (especially lone large ships).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Well, what I meant was, "only" 4 cruisers is still more, in terms of total power, than 2 dreadnoughts. And if I just want a bit of extra power on top of the 4 cruisers, going for interceptors might be more economical. Sure, it takes more actions to move a swarm of interceptors, but that should be compensated by the fact that they take less actions to upgrade.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate
United States
Essex Junction
Vermont
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Konrad von Richtmark wrote:
Well, what I meant was, "only" 4 cruisers is still more, in terms of total power, than 2 dreadnoughts. And if I just want a bit of extra power on top of the 4 cruisers, going for interceptors might be more economical. Sure, it takes more actions to move a swarm of interceptors, but that should be compensated by the fact that they take less actions to upgrade.


This is the benefit of dreadnoughts right here. You can move a lot of firepower with fewer move actions. You are also assuming these ships will be full upgraded. Dreads give you a better ship without having to upgrade or while relying on fewer upgrades.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Dreadnoughts can easily pull off awesome odds in early combat against ancients, that alone makes them very valuable.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri, better odds than an equally expensive commitment of cruisers? Are you comparing un-upgraded cases of both?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Konrad von Richtmark wrote:
Petri, better odds than an equally expensive commitment of cruisers? Are you comparing un-upgraded cases of both?

1 dread and 1 interceptor provides 96% odds against ancients with a single upgrade action. I don't believe you can achieve anything better using 0 science, 8 materials and 1 upgrade action.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just out of curiosity, what component do you add to the empty slots using that upgrade action?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I assume you'd hull for to the dreadnaught and interceptor in that case.

To address the OP, an improved hull strapped Dreadnaught is terrifying and cannot be beaten until you get a hold of high damage weapons. Improved Hull Cruisers are more susceptible to being killed with focus fire.

Also, interceptors are amazing primarily as mobile ship-pinners and as Neutron bomb carriers. I've never seen an end-game where people weren't trying to spread out interceptors with Neutron bombs to nuke away opponent's points.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A somewhat related issue, would it affect the game adversely if the hard limits on numbers of ships were raised to, say, double what they are now? That would allow for even larger forces to be built around a single ship type.

And it would not necessarily unduely favour aggression, since twice as many starbases could be built as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think doubling the number of ships could excaberate disparity in military power.

If someone gets improved hull early and kits out their Dreadnaughts, they could just send 2 of their four Dreadnaughts at their left and right opponents and just destroy them.

By having fewer ships, it makes you have to play more conservatively as you can't pressure everyone or defend on all flanks.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Konrad von Richtmark wrote:
A somewhat related issue, would it affect the game adversely if the hard limits on numbers of ships were raised to, say, double what they are now? That would allow for even larger forces to be built around a single ship type.

And it would not necessarily unduely favour aggression, since twice as many starbases could be built as well.

I think the limits are about right. If an opponent has two "unbeatable" dreadnoughts, you can still fight him in any sector(s) where he doesn't have those dreadnoughts. If the limit would be 4, there's very little you could do to stop him.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Well, are they really unbeatable? Do those extra few slots on the same ship give a qualitative advantage that can't be compensated for with simply more cruisers?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Konrad von Richtmark wrote:
Well, are they really unbeatable? Do those extra few slots on the same ship give a qualitative advantage that can't be compensated for with simply more cruisers?

Yes, they can be. Especially early on in the game when ancient parts are still significant.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Koskinen
Finland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You also don't always roll statistical averages. Even if your two sufficiently upgraded cruisers should beat two basic ancient ships (or an ancient homeworld cruiser), a bit of bad luck with the dice could mean that one of your cruisers gets destroyed. A similarly upgraded one dreadnought however could survive the combat with the same dice rolls, and you wouldn't be down 5 materials. The case is even worse with interceptors: you could beat something with 4 of them, but you'll likely be down 3 or 6 materials after combat due to loss of craft.

The biggest advantage of dreadnoughts is the mobility, however. In the early game you can mount offense with two different 'noughts in different parts of galaxy so that a single move action advances you on both fronts. Two pairs of cruisers eat more move actions (with most races).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrique Takahashi
United States
Louisville
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've found out that a Dreadnought, with those 2 extra slots, can equip enough computers and shields to be very scary, enemies will have hard time hitting it, while the Dreadnought hits almost every time...

Or you could be me and roll 5 1s in a row and die
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Campbell
Canada
Banff
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm really just relaying what others have said here;
but conserving actions is valuable, and moving a large fleet is very costly in this respect.

The Eridani are a perfect example. There is a very good reason why their dreadnoughts have +1 embedded energy. They really don't have the influence to be able to move a large fleet, particularly early in the game, unless by luck they manage to draw best-case scenario planets that produce a whole lot of economy. Taking even 2 move actions to move the full force of their fleet would seriously hamper their ability to do much else with their early-game turns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Lanzing
United States
Buford
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dreadnaughts have two advantages over Cruisers:

1. You can build both for one build action.
2. You can move both for one move action.

Over the course of a game, Dreadnaughts can be MUCH more efficient in terms of actions. And actions = money!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.